Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
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Same situation as me then. The consular officer wanted to give me instructions as to what I should do if the need to travel to the US arose before my CLN was approved. I thanked him kindly and assured him I wouldn’t be traveling to the US, so I don’t know what the advice would have been, but it seems they do have a procedure they want renunciants to follow. May cost you an extra renewal fee I guess. 🙁
I’ve read elsewhere that the Embassy sometimes gives a letter which you can waive at immigration officials.
Ironically all this was prompted because my US passport is expiring. I realised that I simply did not want to continue with being a US citizen. I thought I’d relinquished back in 1993 (only took on new US passport after being bullied by an immigration official). Then I wondered why the application form asked for my SS number, and that’s when I found out all about CBT etc.
How innocent I was, only six weeks ago…
Yes, it certainly comes as a shock.
If they’ll give you a letter, all should be well. There have been quite a few reports of hassle-free entry on non-US passport, showing CLN. A letter should do the trick just as well.
I sincerely wish I could unlearn what I have learnt. I’ve gotten off (thus far?) relatively lightly. I’ve grieved over what others have been through (and are going through now). I thought of the USA like some kindly grandfather who had been part of my upbringing and then sent me on my way. I feel so differently now. An innocence lost…
Thanks for the reassurance. My answer, if asked why I renounced, is that I’ve sworn an oath to the Queen several times (at taking on UK citizenship and now as a priest in the Church of England) and I feel that is incompatible with US citizenship.
a) No need to say why you are renouncing.
b). We have travelled hundreds of times with Canadian passport an US birthplace. 3 times over 40 yrs the border guy commented ( always in a friendly manner ). Last time he asked ‘have you renounced? ‘yes’. Have a nice trip.
Ask for a letter or take the receipt for the 2350. After that carry your CLN but show it only if asked. Don’t forget the ESTA process this time. You will be claiming to be an uncitizen.
Many thanks for the advice! And, yes, I know about ESTA. It will feel a bit odd. When I entered the USA with UK passport before, it was before ESTA came out.
Reading further on this question, Withers Worldwide has this:
https://www.withersworldwide.com/en-gb/u-s-citizenship-renunciation-withers-wins-victory-on-behalf-of-clients
Unfortunately, no comment on what consular officers are instructed to do if the passport is expired. One thing seems certain – it will be impossible to renew the US passport after the oath is administered.
I have to say that if it was me I would be inclined to postpone the renunciation appointment until after the trip, and pay the renewal fee for the sake of being sure of being allowed to fly.
Just my 2p.
Link to the manual page which tells the consular staff what to do if renunciant has US travel plans:
https://fam.state.gov/fam/07fam/07fam1220.html#M1227
Thanks for the 2p. Problem is, I’m trying for a relinquishment backdated to 1993, so applying for a new US passport would scrupper that.
I’ve heard from others that they haven’t had a problem. Or that they showed the receipt and/or a letter from the Embassy.
I think I’ll just have to continue down this path. I’ll be entering on a UK passport, so that should help. As for the airlines, my UK passport only states the name of my city of birth, not a state or country, and the city name looks Spanish! (Not a well known city in the USA, I hasten to add.)
Hope it all goes smoothly.
@ BirdPerson
It looks like they have changed the procedure re: passports. When my husband relinquished in 2014 they kept his US passport at the consulate and upon his request (my suggestion) they gave him an interim letter to present at the border if he needed to travel to the USA before his CLN arrived (no fee at that time so no receipt as for a renunciation). Glad it was that way otherwise he might have had to make another journey to the consulate to get his US passport officially invalidated when his CLN arrived. I’d just explain your situation to the consulate staff and ask them for a letter. Let them keep your expired US passport.
@EmBee–thanks, all very sensible. I’ll ask for a letter!
“May cost you an extra renewal fee I guess.”
If BirdPerson were brave enough, she could get an answer to a question several of us have had. Apply for a passport, declare that the applicant intentionally relinquished US nationality by performing an action (with sufficient details), and see if they get a CLN for the price of a passport renewal or see if a relinquisher gets a new passport. BirdPerson’s case would have the complication that the passport renewal application is submitted under duress.
There’s still the question of what to do when neither the CLN nor new passport arrives in time.
“I’ve read elsewhere that the Embassy sometimes gives a letter which you can waive at immigration officials.”
In 2011 the US Embassy in Tokyo kept my US passport and gave me such a letter. The immigration inspector in Los Angeles airport waived any need to show the letter. He stamped my Canadian passport with US class of entry “NC” and no expiry date, so he must have seen on the computer that my CLN had not been approved yet. In later visits, US immigration stamps say class B2 and expiry date 6 months after entry.
“My answer, if asked why I renounced, is that I’ve sworn an oath to the Queen several times”
Swearing an oath to a person isn’t the same as swearing an oath to a state.
By the way, for a British subject (a first-class citizen from the UK) to acquire Canadian citizenship, the person has to swear an oath to the Queen.
Funny story on a related issue: A US citizen friend of mine recently acquired UK citizenship. As Bird Person said, the UK passport should state only the city of birth. My friend was born in Atlanta. On the application form it asked for city and state/province of birth, so he put “Atlanta, Georgia”. When he received his new UK passport, his place of birth was shown simply as “Georgia”!
Worried what might happen if he ever travels to the country of Georgia, he actually returned the passport, explaining the situation and pointed out that the CITY name is Atlanta. He asked them to correct the birth place to “Atlanta”. The Passport Office sent it back, refusing to change it, stating that it’s their policy to only state the name of the city of birth. You can’t argue with stupid, so he accepted it.
I explained to him the advantage if he travels to the USA on his UK passport. He can pretend to be a Georgian immigrant to the UK, no question ever of his being mistaken as a US citizen. Same for bank account setup, and so on. It’s almost as good as a renunciation!
I was very pleased to only have that Spanish sounding, relatively unknown Californian city on my UK passport when I visited North Korea for two weeks. I passed as British for the whole fortnight I was there.
I’ll continue on the course I have set into motion and see what happens at the London Embassy this coming Thursday.
Luckily North Korea doesn’t have ESTA.
No, but I did lie twice on my visa application for the visit. ‘Original nationality’ and ‘occupation’. That was under the advice of the British owned travel agency.
“Apply for a passport, declare that the applicant intentionally relinquished US nationality by performing an action (with sufficient details), and see if they get a CLN for the price of a passport renewal or see if a relinquisher gets a new passport.”
IMO – applying to renew a US passport would be “acting like an American” and would render any tacked-on “prior relinquishment” claim pointless. The applicant would still be a USC and able to renew the passport.
‘IMO – applying to renew a US passport would be “acting like an American” and would render any tacked-on “prior relinquishment” claim pointless.’
Then you think there is no purpose to the passport application form containing a declaration and instructions telling the applicant to cross out the inaccurate clauses and explain them?
Could be, could be. Compare to the jurat at the bottom of a US income tax return, which the law requires you to sign without alteration regardless of what you know or believe to be the actual facts. 26 USC sections 7206 and 7207 only punish perjury that is performed willingly, so if you commit perjury under duress (such as the law requiring you to do so) then you’re OK. I wonder if you’re required to commit perjury on passport applications too.
No wait, that doesn’t make sense. On passport applications you’re allowed to tell the truth. You just have the opinion that the truth doesn’t matter and the application will always be accepted.
“You just have the opinion that the truth doesn’t matter and the application will always be accepted.”
Not at all. I think a USC can’t claim prior relinquishment of US citizenship if they’re trying to renew a US passport. Whether that particular renewal application would result in successful renewal, I have no opinion. For all I know, it might just lead to a bill for $2350 for the failed relinquishment claim.
The maybe-USC reports the potentially relinquishing act and reports that the act was performed with the intention to renounce US citizenship. The passport application will result in adjudication of the person’s US nationality.
If the result of the adjudication is that the person relinquished, the passport application will be denied and the consular official will prepare a CLN. More on this in a moment.
If the result of the application is that the person is still a US national, the passport application will be approved and the person will have to decide to renounce. Renunciation will cost 2,350 yanks.
If the passport application is denied and the consular official prepares a CLN, I’m not sure if the US has to give a copy of the CLN to the person. If they have to, I don’t think there’s any way for them to get 2,350 yanks. But if they don’t have to, then the person might have to pay to get a copy.
Or if the person has relinquished US citizenship s/he can just not bother playing games with the US about it – as if it was up to the US to decide. No reason a non-US-citizen should feel obliged to jump through their hoops.
FATCA/IGA bank access problems are problems caused by local law. The former citizen may choose to avoid those problems by buying a US CLN, if s/he can afford it; or in some countries s/he may be able to contest the law as discriminatory, or successfully self-certify. Only a change to the local law can resolve the inherent injustice of the IGAs.
An update. I had to renounce (relinquishment disallowed due to my US passport). The official advised me that I would not be able to get an ESTA and should apply for a visa as soon as possible, which would mean an interview at the embassy.
Well, I applied for an ESTA today, 36 hours after my renunciation. Put down that I’d been a US citizen, and held a US passport the past, but have only one citizenship now. And the ESTA has been approved!
The embassy official said he’d ask for my CLN to be expedited in view of my travel plans. I’ve also copied the receipt to take with me.