Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 549 Comments

Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?

The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.

Thank you.

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549 thoughts on “Question: Has anyone had a bad experience when entering the US?”

  1. On December 19th I flew to the US from Ottawa and went through US immigration at the Ottawa airport.

    This was the second time I had entered the US by plane since I received my Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN).

    The officer stamped my passport and said, “I see you were born in the US but since you presented a Canadian passport, I stamped it. But I think you’re probably still an American and so should travel on a US passport.”

    To which I replied, “no, I am not an American citizen, I have my CLN.”

    He did not ask to see the CLN and sent me on my way.

    This was the closest I’ve come to having to show the CLN while crossing the border.

  2. @Proud,

    Interesting! I wonder from this exchange if we can say that they probably don’t have access to information of a relinquishment or renunciation.

    I’ve only entered the US once since I got my CLN, at a land crossing in BC. They didn’t say anything to me about my US birthplace. A couple of years ago, at a different land crossing in BC, my sister (no CLN) was told they wouldn’t let her enter “next time” without a US passport.

  3. I’ll be flying down for work in a few weeks, pre-clearance at a Canadian airport. Plan is to use the Canadian passport with US birthplace but have the still-valid US version in my pocket if needed.

  5. Intelligence gathering. Want to see if they check, so I can report back. I’ve only been told to produce it once, about six years ago. Also it’s just the principle of the thing – I identify as Canadian, and that’s how I would prefer to travel.

  6. I entered the U.S. on December 19th. At customs in Vancouver airport I was asked the usual questions: purpose of trip,destination, how long will I be staying. I was staying for a week with return to Vancouver on December 26th. Then the border officer asked “where is your US passport”? I travel on a Canadian passport and have a US birthplace so replied “I’m Canadian only”. Border officer says “Did you renounce your US citizenship”? I reply “yes I did”. She replied “have a nice trip”. I carry a copy of my CLN but was not asked for it. Later I looked at my passport and saw it had been stamped with a 6 month class B1/B2 visa which I believe indicates pleasure and business travel allowed for that time period. This is interesting because I had mentioned to the officer that I was visiting my very elderly Mom who is in poor health.

    It was unsettling being asked, at the border, for the first time if I had renounced. Later it occurred to me that perhaps she was being nice by stamping my passport with permission to stay longer in the US if necessary due to circumstances.

  7. “Later I looked at my passport and saw it had been stamped with a 6 month class B1/B2 visa which I believe indicates pleasure and business travel allowed for that time period. This is interesting because I had mentioned to the officer that I was visiting my very elderly Mom who is in poor health.”

    B1 is standard for business meetings, B2 is standard for pleasure such as social visits and tourism, and both usually allow a 6-month period of stay.

    Your visit to your mother is a social visit even though your mother’s health isn’t pleasurable.

    Now, who calls going to court a pleasure? The US Department of State, that’s who. When my wife had to apply for a visa to go to US Tax Court, the embassy suggested she should apply for B2, the embassy actually issued B2, and the immigration inspector at a US airport allowed her in (the US doesn’t have preclearance in Japan (my wife isn’t Japanese so she needs a US visa)). When I travelled to the US go to to court, an immigration inspector at a US airport decided my category is B2 too and let me in (I’m not Japanese either, but as a Canadian I don’t need a US visa for category B2). The permitted stay was always 6 months.

    The exception was before my CLN, when an immigration inspector at a US airport stamped my Canadian passport saying category NC and no time limit.

  8. @WhatAmI says My sense is that they don’t have information about CLN’s on their computers at per-clearance. The officer only reacted to my passport.

    @PatCanadian – I entered via per-clearance in April 2016. Without any comment from the immigration officer, my Canadian passport was stamped B2 with a 6 month expiry. Not sure why nothing was said as it seems I was treated as a Canadian.

    I never get asked about my citizenship status at a land crossing. I generally say I’m visiting family. The last time, the officer just said, “makes sense since you were born in the States” but nothing further.

  9. Nononymous says
    December 28, 2017 at 5:57 pm
    I’ll be flying down for work in a few weeks, pre-clearance at a Canadian airport. Plan is to use the Canadian passport with US birthplace but have the still-valid US version in my pocket if needed.
    ***********************************************************

    @Nononymous— I recall reading in the past that passports contain RFID (radio frequency ID) chips that can be read before you approach the immigration counter. This I suppose would give immigration a heads up allowing them to be aware of someone who is flagged in the area before that person even knows they’ve been scanned. If you are travelling with the US passport in your possession, you may wish to use some sort of shielding wallet to prevent it from being picked up:

    https://lewisnclark.com/rfid-shield-passport/

  11. Presumably they could issue the CLN as a RFID-equipped anti-passport if they chose to – thus eliminating any excuse need for interrogation at the border.

  12. WhatAmI says
    December 28, 2017 at 5:46 pm
    @Proud,

    Interesting! I wonder from this exchange if we can say that they probably don’t have access to information of a relinquishment or renunciation.

    I’ve only entered the US once since I got my CLN, at a land crossing in BC. They didn’t say anything to me about my US birthplace. A couple of years ago, at a different land crossing in BC, my sister (no CLN) was told they wouldn’t let her enter “next time” without a US passport.
    **********************************************************

    Regarding your sister, I suspect this was bluff/scare tactics on the immigration agent’s part. If your sister is a USC (in their mind at least), how can they deny her entry into the US once she is at the border? They can try to delay her/ruin her day, but they won’t be able to deport her.

    Years ago (pre-FATCA), I flew into the US with two of my minor children. I handed the immigration agent my US passport along with my children’s Canadian passports. I declared my children who were born in Canada to be US citizens. He asked for proof of their US citizenship. My response was:
    Both their parents are USC.
    They had (back in Canada) US Consular Reports of Birth Abroad (not with me at the time).
    We had a fun exchange. He asked why he should accept any of this without proof. My response— I was making this declaration to a federal agent. If my declaration were untruthful, wouldn’t this be a crime?
    I’ll cut to the chase. The immigration agent was able to verify the Consular Reports of Birth Abroad on whatever Dark Web computer system they use (which he did and then entered them into the US as USC). He was lazy, though, and didn’t want to do so. He wanted to stamp my kids passports with the visitor stamp since this would mean less work for him and he could say “Next!” As I said, this was pre-FATCA when many of us actually wanted to pass our US citizenship on to our kids. My how times have changed.

  13. @plaxy— I recall reading in the past that their are different quality levels of these wallets. Basically, if the RFID scanner is strong (reads at a longer distance), you need a thicker wallet to block the scan. Given that one is dealing with the US, a lead lined box might be needed to block their scanning equipment! I say this all with the following caveats— I am not an electrical engineer, and this information comes from articles I read off the internet, a few years ago. So, your mileage may vary…

  15. Interesting point about RFID. I’ll just keep the US passport in my bag, make this part of the experiment. I’m curious to see if they notice or care. If past experience is any guide, they won’t.

  16. My employer makes anti-RFID passport covers and other accessories. Their target market is Japanese travellers but the company has a branch in Canada. Hmm.

    Meanwhile, the US government uses RFID identification cards to allow permitted persons to pass through various doors and prevent others from passing. A few years ago the US figured out it wasn’t to their advantage to let every hacker within scanning range read every government employee’s RFID card. The US sourced bids for anti-RFID card cases that would make it easy for government employees to press a spring or slide a slider when they’re near a door that they want to pass through but otherwise normally the RFID cards would be protected. A correspondent company in the US asked my employer to bid for that. We couldn’t send samples by mail because the US government has some problem with the way USPS handles mail. We had to use a private courier. We were rejected because if a person shakes our card case hard enough the card can fall out.

    I guess the idea of using a Blackberry for security is dead. Maybe the US could use iPhones for the purpose. iPhone security was good enough that the FBI sued Apple to try to make them reduce the amount of security.

  17. “My response— I was making this declaration to a federal agent. If my declaration were untruthful, wouldn’t this be a crime?”

    Yeah, whereas truthful declarations only bring civil penalties and confiscations.

  18. “Interesting! I wonder from this exchange if we can say that they probably don’t have access to information of a relinquishment or renunciation.”

    That’s only at preclearance. For flights from Japan we go through US immigration in the US. Before my CLN an immigration inspector stamped my Canadian passport and wrote category NC with no time limit, but after my CLN immigration inspectors in the same airport stamped my Canadian passport and wrote category B2 with a 6 month time limit. I think we can say that in US airports they have access to information. They never asked to see my CLN but they knew when it was pending and they knew when it had been issued.

  19. What would be the point of US immigration asking to see a CLN if their system has just indicated the traveler is no longer a US citizen? On the other hand, if their system shows nothing or you’ve got a guy who doesn’t know how to run the computer, a CLN settles the question. Bottom line, if you’ve got one, best to carry it with you.

    As a self-relinquisher, I had just such an argument entering on my Canadian passport a couple of years ago. The guy let me in eventually, but I was fully prepared to be turned back rather than let him claim I was still a US citizen. A CLN would have made it easier.

    Re: Blackberries, Iphones, etc. If its locked and you refuse to give them the password when asked you’re screwed. Nothing to do with the device’s security. The US border is a Constitution-free zone.

    Re: RFID. Even if they can’t read the passport or card, they’ll sure as hell wonder what you are hiding in that lump of lead that shows up on their scanner. I wouldn’t put anything but a credit card in a lead case. Anything more; it just looks suspicious.

  20. “Re: RFID. Even if they can’t read the passport or card, they’ll sure as hell wonder what you are hiding in that lump of lead that shows up on their scanner. I wouldn’t put anything but a credit card in a lead case. Anything more; it just looks suspicious.”

    Hang on a minute. It’s the US Government (and other governments) who have mandatorily lumbered us with these trackable insecure chips containing our personal details; and it’s the USG which has got itself into an irrational tailspin over dual citizens’ passports and the right of entry.

    People have got a perfect right to carry stuff in their pockets without it being read by unknown parties without their consent or knowledge. If a border guard gets suspicious, so what? It’s hardly a crime for a USC to carry a US passport.

    It is a crime under US law for a USC dual to enter the US using their non-US passport, but it’s a characteristically irrational American crime and it absolutely deserves to be challenged by any USC dual who’s up for the hassle.

    They’re the ones who’re in the wrong here, as with CBT and FATCA. May their suspicions gnaw their vitals!

  21. “It’s hardly a crime for a USC to carry a US passport.”

    But it might be a crime to carry a concealed passport. Just like the 2nd amendment doesn’t provide a right to wear long-sleeved shirts.

    “It is a crime under US law for a USC dual to enter the US using their non-US passport, but it’s a characteristically irrational American crime”

    I bet a few other countries had similar laws before the US and Canada.

  22. “I bet a few other countries had similar laws before the US and Canada.”

    Is there another (democratic) country which makes it a crime?

    I agree most countries probably want their citizens to enter on their passports, but do they criminalize using the other passport? or do they just rely on the fact that it’s obviously in the citizen’s own interests to enter without restrictions?

    Only the US (among democracies) makes entry a potentially nerve-wracking experience for its own innocent native citizens / former citizens

  23. Some democratic countries prohibit dual citizenship so if their citizen enters using a foreign passport they’re in trouble.

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