Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
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As mentioned, a tricky situation. I would take the position that I had relinquished US citizenship in 1995 . Should work but not guaranteed. Fortunately for us ,it’s easier from Canada. My spouse, born in USA, crossed the border hundreds of times on a Canadian passport without problems and before obtaining a CLN . I agree it’s getting stickier every day. Strange country- truly paranoid.
I would like to visit US citizen family who reside in the US in the future (and otherwise tend to avoid visiting the US just on principle now) but am increasingly disturbed by the expanding incursion of US powers onto Canadian soil.
I find it very ominous that our Canadian government has agreed to what amounts to a suspension of our Charter and constitutional rights as applied to citizens and legal permanent resident of Canada on the CANADIAN side of the border, with US officers in charge on our supposedly sovereign autonomous soil;
https://bccla.org/news/2017/12/bccla-reacts-passage-u-s-preclearance-bill/
http://www.voiceonline.com/liberties-disappointed-preclearance/
http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/ambassador-to-u-s-is-mystified-by-privacy-concerns-around-canadian-border-pre-clearance-bill https://ipolitics.ca/2017/12/07/border-screening-bill-escapes-sweeping-amendments-senate/
I have a Canadian passport and a CLN but some of us are being subjected to unwarranted detention and abuse at the border, including children and babies http://www.durhamradionews.com/archives/106674 https://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/7807503–74m-needed-to-get-son-8-off-no-fly-list-markham-mom-says/ (ex. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-author-calls-out-canadian-government-border-questioning-1.4430916 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-no-fly-list-bashir-mohamed-eleanor-mohammed-1.4413486 https://www.amnesty.ca/news/open-letter-amnesty-international-calls-public-safety-minister-address-%E2%80%9Cno-fly-list-kids%E2%80%9D ).
This abuse will only increase as the US becomes ever more paranoid and recent enabling Canadian legislation originating with the CONS and now pushed through by gLib collusion despite the serious issues raised by our privacy commissioner and some very astute senators ( ex. https://ipolitics.ca/2017/12/07/border-screening-bill-escapes-sweeping-amendments-senate/ ). The further erosion of civil and human rights, and the extension of the US “constitution free zone” https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map is infecting our own society further.
It is not worth it to me to visit the US to shop or even to travel there for sightseeing, etc. I am unlikely to be selected based solely on my name, or physical appearance (unlike other close members of my family), but I resent the suspension of civil and human rights which is now intruding into my chosen home country by my country of birth. If we do not act in solidarity with those whose rights are being denied, then we become complicit.
The US may not care about the effect on crossborder shopping or tourism, but refraining from going there unnecessarily is one small way for me to protest what it is fast becoming – trailing Canada in its wake as usual.
Interesting, a Canadian MP told he couldn’t enter the US without a US passport earlier this year;
“…NDP MP Randall Garrison, who came to Canada 44 years ago, assumed his U.S. citizenship was automatically rescinded because he did not meet several requirements for continued citizenship. He only learned that was not the case when taking part in a parliamentary delegation to Washington in March 2017, when he was told he was ineligible to enter the U.S. on a Canadian passport because he was a U.S. citizen.
He was eventually allowed in on a one-time basis and a red-flagged file, and it cost him $3,000 to later sort out the administrative requirements…..”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dual-citizenship-mps-senators-parliament-australia-1.4439522
Not sure what those ‘administrative requirements’ were, unless the $3000. was a renunciation/relinquishment fee and he obtained a backdated CLN.
Am I the only one who thinks complaints about customs pre-clearance are a bit of a red herring?
The US, like any country, including Canada, can quite arbitrarily decide who it does or does not want to deny entry. Only citizens have the right to enter, for anyone else it’s at the discretion of officialdom. This I do not have a problem with. Don’t like it? Then don’t visit.
Pre-clearance is not Canada voluntarily surrendering sovereignty, it’s a convenience. If you’re going to be denied entry to the US, wouldn’t you rather have it happen at the airport prior to departure, not once you’ve landed? (The Americans like it because it keeps people out; the airlines like it because it’s less hassle; Canadians like it because it’s a quicker trip home after being denied entry, though sometimes a long grilling means missed connections and overnight layovers.)
The recent change to allow detention are a bit troubling. Previously if you didn’t like the line of questioning you could turn around and walk back out of the customs zone. Now CBP has the authority to detain you for a few hours, and only a few hours, in order to interrogate you as why. Not nice, but I’m not sure the outcome is much different because if you had done a 180 and bolted, your name would definitely be flagged and you’d face questions the next time you tried to enter the US.
Overall, though, I don’t think US customs pre-clearance is something worth getting one’s knickers in a knot over. We’re generally better off with than without.
I think America’s criteria for who they’ll let in are revolting and discriminatory.
NDP MP Randall Garrison, who came to Canada in 1973, four years after my husband and I did and we subsequently chose to become Canadian citizens in 1975 to make this our home / to raise our children here, likely also believed he had lost his US citizenship when becoming a Canadian citizen as we / many who did so in those years were
toldwarned that we would lose our US citizenship by doing so. His experience of being told at the border he was ineligible to enter the US on a Canadian passport because he was a US citizen / eventually allowed in on a one-time basis and a red-flagged file is similar to mine when I was asked by a US border official where my US passport was — my Canadian passport showing that I was born in New York State, and told that he would allow me to cross this time, but the next time it must be with a US passport. I worried that I would be flagged (but never had proof) so, intimidated, I naively obtained my first and only (now with holes punched into it and returned to me with my CLN) US passport, an act that puts one back into USC status so relinquishment upon becoming a Canadian citizen could not be claimed. I have certainly learned much I had no earthly idea of at the time of my US border experience! Will such experience become more prevalent or will it be, as for most of us crossing into the US from Canada, a blind eye is turned toward *the law is the law*.@ Ellen D
Have you considered sending your airfare to your brother and having him visit you in Australia instead? Or perhaps you could meet in Canada or Mexico, where your Australian passport would be accepted. (Make sure your flights do not pass over the USA.) You asked if your birthplace is a problem. Short answer is YES. As for myself, I’ve said it several times before — won’t go there, not ever! And those ESTA questions are outrageous. The walls around the USA grow ever higher and soon, to the world’s relief, it will have placed itself in full quarantine.
@ Nononymous
“Am I the only one who thinks complaints about customs pre-clearance are a bit of a red herring?”
I guess I see it as a foreign government questioning and possibly detaining a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil and that, to me, is worth knotted knickers but people are so passive these days about their loss of freedom, privacy and dignity and care so little about their country’s loss of sovereignty that I can see acceptance as well becoming the norm. Convenience is but another word for something more to lose.
@plaxy
Oh I fully agree, but the point is, they have the right to set whatever horrid criteria they want, and we have the right to avoid the place if we don’t like it.
@EmBee
I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with the detaining business, and rightly so. But it’s limited to a certain number hours and then you have to be released – you aren’t hauled off to the US or rendered straight to Gitmo. It’s a weird grey area – the customs zone is not US soil but US officials have certain rights to do things. Ultimately I don’t think we’re being passive about our rights and privacy here – don’t want to deal with the US, don’t go, and you’ll never set foot in customs pre-clearance – but rather it’s a compromise that most everyone benefits from. I certainly prefer getting off the plane in the US knowing that I just need to find a taxi, rather than deal with the border patrol.
@ Nononymous
My tolerance levels are very low so my no-go policy works well for me. For you and many others, customs pre-clearance is just something to shrug off as long as you get to go (or not, if they don’t like your answers). I presume airlines refund fares for anyone who is not allowed to board due to detention.
The last time I was in the US (the early 1990’s) I could not obtain health insurance at all because of my disability – it wasn’t a safe place for me to be, so I returned to Australia. The first Clinton was meant to fix health insurance situation back then but didn’t. I became an Australian citizen as soon as I could. I was pissed off with the US being like that.
My US brother has visited me in Australia several times. I have a brother in Vancouver (he was the one who told me about CBT and FATCA), a friend in Toronto and a brother in Massachusetts. It would be nice to visit all three.
@EmBee
I’m not sure what the airline refund policies are, but if there was no pre-clearance then anyone denied entry to the US would be flown straight back to Canada, at someone’s expense. And if it’s the next morning you’d probably spend the night on a hard plastic chair because they won’t be sending you to a hotel. (So given the choice, I prefer pre-clearance.)
@ Ellen D
Hmmm … nonstop flight to Vancouver, on to Toronto and then Massachussets brother drives up to Toronto to visit? I don’t know. My flying days are way in the past and things are much different now. I hope you can work this out. Could you get reasonably priced travel health insurance for Canada? I had a Calgary neighbour with health conditions who had to spend almost as much as her airfare to get travel health insurance for Australia. (She needed a scheduled treatment while away.
I was once denied boarding by Jet Airways on a flight to India because my 5 year visa, for which I had paid some $300, was in an expired passport (which I had with me, as well as the new one). After much argument they let me board on condition that I sign a waiver absolving them of responsibility (I actually had no problem in India). This suggests that an airline may be responsible for flying you back, if they allow you to board (which is not the same as refunding your fare).
If one is refused by US pre-clearance, has one been allowed to board by the airline? It seems a grey area. I suspect there would be no refund, only maybe a credit or partial credit. Maybe. I’ve asked my travel agent and she doesn’t know. On Air Canada I believe a credit has to be used within a year for the same type of flight (ie a credit from a flight to the US cannot be used internationally; I’m not sure if it can be used within Canada).
@Nononymous, re;
“Am I the only one who thinks complaints about customs pre-clearance are a bit of a red herring?
The US, like any country, including Canada, can quite arbitrarily decide who it does or does not want to deny entry. Only citizens have the right to enter, for anyone else it’s at the discretion of officialdom. This I do not have a problem with. Don’t like it? Then don’t visit.”
My point is that these changes subvert Canadian law and they are being applied by US officials on Canadian soil, as applied to Canadians, without remedy or recourse (“…the new law says that neither the American nor the Canadian governments can be held liable in court for many potential rights violations that could occur when these new powers are used. ” https://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=22500 ). Do you not think that there should be reasonable reliable access to a remedy in egregious cases where US officials wield almost unbridled powers – AND they’re doing it on Canadian soil? They have already shown what they are willing to do to those INSIDE the US, who have legal US citizenship, are not attempting to cross any border, and have done nothing. Ex. see http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/immigration/94173422-132.html
That the ACLU has to issue advice such as this https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu_border_rights.pdf to people WITHIN the US shows what a sorry state of affairs the US is in. I refuse to accept that the US should be allowed to extend that abuse to people inside my home country.
Not all the crossborder travel is by air, so in many many cases there would be no issue of having incurred a plane fare for a return if denied entry. There is significant car and foot and other type of travel across the length of the land borders between the US and Canada (ex. see http://www.niagarafallsbridges.com/index.php/services/traffic-statistics https://www.bts.gov/content/border-crossingentry-data ). That means that many Canadians would be detained while on Canadian soil before entering the US, can be strip searched by a US official if no Canadian customs agent available, held for unspecified periods of time, under unspecified conditions, for unspecified criteria, with no recourse. How can a Canadian be detained without cause or recourse BEFORE they enter the US?
The application of the laws are shrouded in secrecy and without recourse or remedy. Border agents already operate without much effective civil oversight or transparency. Certain people will and are being singled out and profiled based solely on secret or discriminatory grounds such as the origin of their name, their dress, their religion, their skin colour and appearance, etc. and can expect to be abused regularly when seeking legitimate access to the US. Even irrational grounds like whether they like Trump ) https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/rejection-rate-on-the-rise-for-canadians-at-us-border/article34262237/ ) . Apparently the US and Canada have agreed that there are subsets of citizens who do not have equal rights, and that they can abuse those they single out for mistreatment with no explanation and no remedy.
I’ve seen firsthand just a bit of what border agents can do randomly if they feel like it. Decades before this, my father, a very elderly man – walking with a cane, and obviously ill and unsteady, was taken aside by a brash new young Canadian customs agent in training, for secondary questioning just because he was dizzy, confused and irritable due to air sickness, and thus slow to answer and to show his driver’s license as fast as the agent barking at him demanded (no other id was required at that time). They could see that we were travelling together as we were standing together before we had to separate for the few feet before the booth. I could hear and see what was happening but I was not allowed to come forward the few feet to assist my father though I tried. I was ordered to go back to the line or they would detain me. I could not stop them taking him away out of sight, to a side room, without me. As soon as I was cleared I tried to locate my father. I had to state that I wanted to speak to a supervisor and that I would be speaking to our MP and highlighting as publicly as possible the harsh treatment of a frail old man without cause. The supervisor freed my father, and somewhat admitted that the agent was out of line and attributed it to his being new, but refused to give me the agent’s name or badge number – pretended he didn’t know who his name and that there was no way for him to identify the agent in question for my complaint. When I tried to look back at the booth to point him out, that agent was gone. That is what happened to a person with the legal right to enter and live in Canada, on Canadian soil, at the hands of a Canadian border agent. For no good reason other than spite and an indulgent show of macho power.
I can only imagine what people are facing now, and at the hands of the current US regime, they’ll be even more harshly treated, prevented from phoning a lawyer, from contacting family, and detained for unspecified periods – with no real recourse and no real remedy. This is the experience of US citizens RETURNING to the US http://nationalpost.com/news/world/somali-american-family-sues-after-border-crossing-detainment
Both the US and Canada state that they need to suspend our rights in order to foster crossborder travel and trade. So this is not just about individuals seeking to enter for frivolous reasons like a bit of holiday shopping. Even if you are not troubled by the significant rights and legal issues, there is a functional trade and commerce issue;
Crossborder travel is endemic to certain professions and certain sectors of business. Would it be okay if in response, Canadian companies started not hiring people they think might be detained and not allowed to travel within reason, to timely attend US meetings, or attend US conferences, or collaborate with US counterparts, or drive trucks into the US, etc.? We have lots of cross border employment in both directions. It is important to the economies of both countries. Should companies start screening their employees in case they might unpredictably fall afoul of profiling at the border? Would that be acceptable?
We shouldn’t surrender and subvert our constitution and Charter for convenience and faster flow of trade. And that you choose to surrender a portion of your rights personally in order to save some time and hassle shouldn’t bind everyone else to a draconian regime.
An example of what we are allowing already is that of the Canadian children who are on the no-fly list who first could not get an acknowledgement that they were on the secret US list, and still cannot get a remedy. Their family is allowed to travel into the US, but not the baby or child. For no good reason.
Should people just quarantine themselves because they can’t predict what will happen at the border to themselves or their family members for any rational or consistent or just reason at all? Ex. http://www.newsweek.com/iraqi-american-lawyer-detained-us-canada-border-trump-executive-order-551731
What is reasonable or proportionate about accepting convenience in exchange for:
“…Charter rights and remedies are not generally enforceable against the US and US
preclearance officers. The Bill is wracked with issues related to who is responsible for breaches
of people’s fundamental human rights, and how these should be remedied. The mechanism provided by s.26.1 – enabling a traveler to inform Canadian senior officials of the Preclearance
Consultative Group of a “situation” related to the exercise of certain powers by a US preclearance
officer – is impractical and provides no remedy to a person whose rights were violated. The Bill
should clarify what entity is liable for a breach of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and human rights
legislation by a US preclearance officer in Canada, how the United States will be effectively held to
its obligations, and how compliance will be enforced against the United States.”
https://bccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Summary-BCCLA-C23-resume-ALCCB-C23-SENATE-SENAT-SECD.pdf
This is the tip of the iceberg of further US incursions into Canada.
Okay, I guess it’s just an issue I don’t feel terribly strongly about, compared to others. I dislike the power of detention and would rather it not have been granted, but I don’t think it fundamentally changes much – if prior to the change you turned and walked away mid-question you’d likely have given yourself a five-year entry ban. Otherwise I don’t get the objection to pre-clearance, except if one is symbolically offended by the presence of US flags and government employees in Canadian airports.
Customs and immigration officers can be jerks. The law gives them tremendous powers. Border zones are places where we are not always in full possession of our constitutional rights. But that is a far bigger fight than FATCA, I’m afraid.
@badger
I would argue that there is no such thing as “legitimate access to the US” nor any “rights” for non-citizens. I never assume that I will be allowed into any country except at the pleasure and discretion of its customs officers. If they don’t like my haircut, or my t-shirt, or the colour of my skin, I’m on the next plane home. Such is life.
Yes that means that for some positions that required business travel to the US, Canadian companies would not hire individuals who were not able to cross the border. Life is not always fair. But we have a different view, obviously. I will agree to disagree – this one doesn’t keep me up nights, because I don’t *need* to enter the US. I don’t *need* to enter North Korea either. (Whereas CBT and FATCA, in theory at any rate, can cause me grief in Canada.)
Also I was referring specifically to the new provision for detention in the US customs pre-clearance area in Canadian airports, plus also a small number of bus and train stations I believe. (On that note I think they have similar facilities in Ireland, plus probably a few others.) I don’t know how this applies at land crossings, other than some rule about agents of either country being allowed to cross the border in “hot pursuit” of someone.
The BC Civil Liberties Association statement I mostly agree with, as there should be recourse to appeal or to sue either government in cases of egregious harm, but they lost me with this statement: “The Trump administration has made clear that it intends to discriminate against people at the border. Now the Canadian government has given the US government even more power to put that discrimination into action.” The US government can (and will) discriminate against whomever it wishes to discriminate against. Opposing it is a political question, not a legal one.
@ badger
Awesome … as always. I’m ashamed that a Canadian treated your father so poorly.
Yes, I should also add, that’s an appalling story concerning your father. A reminder that we are always in a state of limbo crossing between countries.
It’s a good thing the worst they can do is turn you back.
https://nyti.ms/2jFomjs
I can not remember but do does a non-Canadian need an ESTA to drive across the border? In light of the question could the person get a flight from OZ to lets say Vancouver then drive across?
In regards to Esta…..relinquish but no CLN….but my passport was cancelled by State….loong looong story.
I have had ESTA approved and no problem on entry but I do pre-clearance in Europe…..
Nononymous – “the point is, they have the right to set whatever horrid criteria they want, and we have the right to avoid the place if we don’t like it.”
They have the power to set and enforce their criteria. And those of us who think their criteria stink, have the power and the right to say so. For now.
I said: “They have the power to set and enforce their criteria.”
Just as they have the power to threaten certain US taxpayers (foreign FFIs) with punitive fines for failing to report an account held by a US Person. Let’s not call it a right, in either case.
@Portland, sometimes it ends worse than being turned back, even on the Canadian side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dzieka%C5%84ski_Taser_incident .
And;
“…the bill, when passed, will grant American customs agents the right to carry weapons within Canada, perform body searches and detain – but not arrest – them.
It will also allow U.S. agents to force a Canadian in a preclearance area, who has decided not to travel to the U.S., to stay in the area for questioning. Right now, that same traveller has the right to simply turn around and leave the area without action or consequence…..”
https://globalnews.ca/news/3251407/border-strip-search-detention-questions-court-challenge/
If they are not US citizens or permanent residents and they are banned from entry to the US for a period, or indefinitely, that is a decision that the US has the power to do apparently – though we will see how that shakes out in the end regarding dual US citizens and those with ‘bona fide connections to the US’ http://www.latimes.com/nation/immigration/la-na-travel-ban-history-2017-htmlstory.html .
If the US does not currently have the clear ability and right to block dual US citizens and some to be defined subsets of non-citizens from entering the US, then I would argue that it is logical that no Canadian legislation could give the US the ‘right’ or power to deny Canadians their constitutional and Charter rights while still inside Canada. And I don’t think it is clear that the gLibs can legally exend or GIVE a foreign nation like the US a pass to go around those rights.
I am arguing that the US does NOT have the legal right to deny US citizens entry into the US, and it does NOT have the legal right and should not be ‘given’ the power to deny Canadian citizens and permanent residents their Charter and constitutional rights while on Canadian soil. There is very likely to be a Charter challenge to any claim that a mere bill can allow a foreign nation to operate on some kind of concocted ‘gray zone’ inside Canada’s borders with impunity.
We have seen how our Supreme Court ruled in the lawsuits brought by Canadian citizens when the RCMP secretly passed false information to foreign agencies of the US https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/10/26/three-canadians-tortured-in-syria-receive-31-million-settlement-from-ottawa.html .
I am concerned that with US border officials allowed to carry and potentially use arms on Canadian soil, there may be incidents in which it will go beyond being detained in one’s own home country by a foreign power, without explanation or recourse, being refused access to a telephone (having had one’s own confiscated) to contact a lawyer or family, and beyond being turned back.
Even Canadian RCMP and border officers have flagged the sovereignty issue and the issue of US agents being allowed to be armed and operating inside Canada, among other problems.
ex. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cross-border-policing-provokes-sovereignty-worries-1.1162116 http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-u-s-cross-border-police-project-postponed-over-differences-1.3475784 There have already been instances where the US operated on Canadian soil without agreement or jurisdiction https://ipolitics.ca/2013/07/28/385546/ .
We have enough problems with sufficient Parliamentary and civil oversight of our own security apparatus here in Canada. There is no way that Canadians will be able to keep effective tabs on what the US does inside Canada and hold them to account, even if our own government and security apparatus chooses to.
It was not my intent to hijack this thread, but I think that this is an emerging issue that will become even more salient for those of us attempting to visit US family, or travel to another non-US country from Canadian, as long as air travel for ex. commonly goes through or over the US.
I was effectively forced to give up my US birthright citizenship as the only timely remedy for the burden of US extraterritorial CBT. That means that I no longer have the right to visit my blood relatives in the US and could potentially be turned away within my home country of Canada OR detained by US agents on my home soil.
That is the connection between FATCA, US extraterritorial CBT and crossborder travel to and from the US and Canada.
Isn’t it better for a Canadian to go through border procedures while still on Canadian territory? It has to happen somewhere.
The scariest place is in a foreign country, not knowing your rights or how to claim them, not knowing what the foreign officials might do to you if they decide not to let you in, and with an ocean between you and home:
https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/denied-entry-to-the-uk
I agree it is unfair that the US doesn’t treat former citizens in quite the same way as other non-citizens. The US birthplace + the non-US passport marks us out for scrutiny. But it doesn’t actually seem to result in former citizens being denied entry.
I always dreaded entering America. I don’t think the dread would be any different now that I’m no longer a citizen. Less, if anything, because I would now have the right to consular assistance, which I never had before.