Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
If clicking on a comment link in the sidebar brings you to the wrong page in the comment stream, click here to go directly to the most recent comment page.
Just got back from my trip to California to visit elderly family who can no longer travel. No problems going either way. Border agent wished me a good trip. No questions asked. I still feel uncomfortable travelling south of the the border but glad I can see family without hassle.
Weird story.
http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/05/07/canadian-senior-with-home-in-florida-barred-from-u-s-over-voter-registration-form/#.WQ_yqpFfOhD
US non-citizen nationals can do some kinds of voting.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/01/canamerican_samoansvote.html
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/non-citizens-vote-today-in-american-samoa
US non-citizens (without having to be nationals) can also do some kinds of voting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_foreigners_to_vote_in_the_United_States
If someone is born in Puerto Rico, therefore US citizen by birth (naturalized at birth by law not by 14th amendment), then while they live in Puerto Rico they can’t vote for presidential electors of any state, but if they move to Jamaica or Cuba then they might be able to choose a US state (since some states are more lenient than others) and vote for that state’s presidential electors. I guess that makes sense because while living in Puerto Rico they’re only subject to Puerto Rico’s RBT but when they move to Jamaica or Cuba they get the US’s CBT.
If someone is born in New York (therefore 14th amendment US citizen by birth) and moves to American Samoa, I wonder what happens.
Anyway, voter registration doesn’t automatically allege citizenship.
“If someone is born in New York (therefore 14th amendment US citizen by birth) and moves to American Samoa, I wonder what happens.”
Depends if they retain residence of a state, I should think.
USCs living outside the US are apparently all living in D.C., in the imaginary mind of US bureaucracy. (Perhaps, I speculate, because apparently D.C. residents, being resident in no state, were originally unable to vote in a presidential election; this was changed by some constitutional amendment.)
Residents of American Samoa don’t live in D.C., in the mind of US bureaucracy and most definitely not in the mind of the IRS. So they can’t register to vote in a US presidential election as residents of Samoa, but perhaps they can as residents of a US state.
An ESTA question, but first a bit of context:
BACKGROUND
I renounced US citizenship about 5 years ago. I applied for an ESTA visa in 2012 (before receiving my CLN) and again, after that one had lapsed (and long after receiving my CLN) in 2015. Entry to US has been straighforward on every occasion.
NOW IN 2017
Have very recently needed to apply for another ESTA visa for travel to the US again. The form has changed radically, with many new and more intrusive questions, now also asking for e.g., parents’ names, current/previous employment, passport numbers and dates-of-lapsing for current/previous citizenship(s), social media IDs (optional!) etc.
I hesitated over the ESTA application form in a number of places. Did I really need to excavate my filing systems for every one of my lapsed passports to provide all of those numbers? Although that is what the form seemed to be requiring, I did not (providing info only the most recent). Did I really need to provide the many pieces of information demanded about every one of my long-ago previous employers (have mostly been self employed) right back to my teenage babysitting jobs, as the form seemed to want? In the end, I did a Nancy Reagan (and just said No, to the question on current and previous employers).
Unlike my 2 previous ESTA applications, after I had paid my $14, this one was *not* just instantly approved in a matter of seconds. Nor was it refused outright – after their computer had hemmed and haw-ed for about 5 minutes, a message flashed up saying that they were going to have to think about it and would get back to me within 72 hours. No email arrived. Nearly a week later, I went back in to the system (using the applicatin number that I’d recorded). This time the screen flashed up with an Approved message – they just had not bothered to mention it to me!
I printed out the 4 pages of questions and answers associated with the Approval screen, for my records. On re-reading, I spotted something that I’d not noticed before. It does not affect me, but it might affect other users of this website. I have tried to find an answer to my question online, but have not succeeded – so over to you experts!
MY QUESTION
In the part of the form that asks about other citizenships, the wording of one question is:
“Have you ever been a citizen or national of any other country?”
What, in the context of the thinking of the US Customs and Border Patrol, is a “national” as distinct from a “citizen”?
Specifically, would a holder of a lapsed Green Card be deemed to be a former (or even current?) US “national” in the context of this question?
Does not affect me personally, was just wondering…
@KingOfThe Road
That’s an interesting question.
That form has been evolving into a version of the Spanish Inquisition over the last few years.
My take on the word ‘National’ could be referring to those who are entitled to a citizenship but have not claimed it.
ie Ireland considers you a National if you are born outside Ireland but have one Irish Parent born in Ireland. You may have not claimed that citizenship or held a passport, yet Ireland considers you an Irish National, hence potential citizen all but for the official claiming of it. Grandchildren of Irish citizens are not considered nationals unless they officially apply for citizenship through a grandparent.
My thinking is that they may be searching for so called ‘Nationals’ of places such as Iran, Syria etc, in their paranoid quest for people who ‘could be’ Nationals of such countries without having applied for citizenship or passport…just my 2 cents.
@KingOfTheRoad, thanks for flagging that, providing details and posing your questions. Thanks also @heidi for your comments.
Thought I’d say that on behalf of silent people who are reading and might be spared some grief due to your altruistic efforts.
I’m not personally affected, but appreciate the group cooperative problem-solving spirit that continues here – of which this is a really good example.
Thanks for sharing the information and your experience with the current ESTA application form/process, KingOfTheRoad.
Re US nationals, I didn’t find any definition of the term on the CBP site.
The DHS site doesn’t shed any light as it only has this to say about “national”, but nothing specific about “US national”: “National – A person owing permanent allegiance to a state.”
There’s a section on US nationals (section 5) on the Wikipedia page on United States Nationality Law, which goes into more detail about US non-citizen nationals and contains links to legislation defining who is one – basically US citizens and persons born in US outlying possessions such as American Samoa, and there’s a similar but shorter discussion of the definition on the Department of State’s page on Certificates of Non Citizen Nationality.
I would assume CBP would use the definition of US non-citizen nationals in 8 USC 1408/ INA 308, but that’s just my off-the-cuff assumption.
I think the term ‘National’ must be considered equivalent to ‘Citizen’ from the US standpoint, such that they are asking us to inform them of Citizenship or Nationality of another state be it claimed or unclaimed.
After all we are all guilty unless proven innocent.
I’ll never go to the USA but my curiosity is urging me to ask if anyone has a copy of the current ESTA application form they would care to share? I’d like to see those questions I will never be answering. Also, if someone did not have any social media profile, how could they prove that negative should a persnickety border guard insist?
A reminder –
CLN stands for “Certificate of Loss of Nationality”.
It does not stand for “Certificate of Loss of Citizenship”.
The subtle nationality/citizenship distinction I will leave for the legal experts to (re)explain.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-nationality-and-citizenship/
I think the question is asked as the US just wants to cover all possibilities
@EmBee
The Esta application is in a multi page format, the next page will not open until the first is completed.
Here is a sample I found online which is the same as I completed two years ago. I do not see a reference to citizenship/nationality or social media as Kingoftheroad has reported so I guess it has changed since.
https://www.esta-registration.net/apply-esta-registration.php
@ heidi
Thanks … so glad I’ll never be filling in one of those. The social media question is new this year apparently but it is optional (for the moment). One of the posts on the thread below said Canadians are exempt from “the ESTA silliness”. Perhaps there is some other kind of silliness for Canadians but border crossings, for me, are a thing of the past. It’s been over 20 years since I’ve done that … back in the day when not even a passport was needed.
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/588657-esta-now-asks-optional-social-media-account-info.html
Here’s their site, EmBee: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/, with a link to the application (that I too will never be answering).
Thanks for the reminder — we all need to know of the terminology that seemingly defines or entraps us.
“Have you ever been a citizen or national of any other country?”
‘What, in the context of the thinking of the US Customs and Border Patrol, is a “national” as distinct from a “citizen”?’
If the word “other” means other than the passport you’re using now, then you could be a former US national without being a former US citizen. For example an American Samoan who lives in New Zealand could take New Zealand citizenship. If the American Samoan has the intention to lose US nationality when taking New Zealand citizenship, I think they’re allowed to lose US nationality even though they never had US citizenship to lose along with it. I wonder if they lose their American Samoan citizenship at the same time or not.
‘Specifically, would a holder of a lapsed Green Card be deemed to be a former (or even current?) US “national” in the context of this question?’
Not likely. A Humpty Dumpty law might say such a thing, but normally a holder of a lapsed greencard is a former US resident.
Wait, there’s an exception. Between around 1935 and 1946, a US non-citizen national who was a citizen of the Philippines could get a green card to reside in the US. The person could be deported before or during or after 1946, and the person could lose US nationality without his consent in 1946, so Mr. Rabang could be both a former US national and former US resident.
Anyway, resident and national are pretty much independent from each other.
I don’t know if I might know another example but Eric might know. If a Chinese citizen residing in Hong Kong was formerly a British subject residing in Hong Kong without right of abode in the UK, is she a former British national?
Conversation between a friend arriving in the U.S. from South America recently (in transit), and the border guy.
I see you were born in the U.S.A. – yes
Do you have an American passport? – no
Did you renounce?- yes
Have a good trip
I would like to visit my brother in the US sometime in 2018. I have not done anything American (i.e. voting) since becoming Australian in 1995. I have not been in the US since 1993. My US passport ran out in 2002 and I do not have a CLN. I do not want to obtain an American passport mainly because of FATCA/CBT. Can I use ESTA to get into the US as an Australian or is my US place of birth a problem?
Ellen,
I know a few dual citizens who have entered the US from Australia on ESTA. I don’t know whether they just neglected to list their US citizenship on the ESTA application, or whether they listed the US as a prior citizenship. Also, I think most of them would have completed the ESTA application several years ago – the application has gotten more intrusive over the past couple of years. I think the question about prior citizenship was added in 2014.
My recollection is that while the ESTA application asks for previous citizenships, it does NOT ask for proof of relinquishment if you list a prior US citizenship. When I filled out the ESTA I had to provide the date my US passport had expired and the number of my last US passport.
Tricky situation for you. Obviously applying for a US passport would invalidate any claim for prior relinquishment of US citizenship.
ESTA forms have become significantly more intrusive in 2017. Everyone is now asked for their current and any prior citizenship(s), including the numbers and dates of lapse of previous passports.
Having renounced one citizenship (US), and – previously – lost another (EU) in the course of acquiring the EU citizenship of my country of residence, this was a bit complicated. Despite the apparent requirement to give *all* prior information, I provided only the numbers and dates of lapse of the most recent passports of my two prior citizenships (and my current citizenship).
The ESTA form also asks for the full names of both of one’s parents (which must be a problem for some) as well as all sorts of detail on one’s current and prior employment history (incl name & address of current and previous employers). For that latter section, I simply ticked the ‘No’ box (ie giving no info at all). As am not, and have not for some years been, ’employed’ in the conventional sense at all, this seemed the best way to go.
This had not been my 1st ESTA applicatin since renouncing my US citizenship, so I was struck by how very much more intrusive the form had become.
Furthermore, for the first time, this ESTA approval was not instantaeous, but took a number of days to come through. No notification was sent to me via email (despite the indication n that it would be sent) that approval had been granted – i found out only by checking back using the bizarrely long reference number that had been provided automatically on screen, at the time of application.
It therefore seems prudent to apply for the ESTA approval (risking only US$14) prior to booking any flights.
Thanks Karen & KingOfTheRoad
I have a physical disability – looks like they are lumping me with drug abusers – do I answer yes or no to:
Do you have a physical or mental disorder; or are you a drug abuser or addict; or do you currently have any of the following diseases:
• Chancroid
• Gonorrhea
• Granuloma Inguinale
• Leprosy, infectious
• Lymphogranuloma venereum
• Syphilis, infectious
• Active Tuberculosis
These people are simply barbaric.
http://www.visabureau.com/america/esta-application-information.aspx
You’re allowed to have a disorder but not if it poses a threat to your safety or welfare.
Rules out a lot of people if they answer yes to the question. Seems wise to answer no.
ESTA should have worded that question differently