Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 549 Comments

Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?

The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.

Thank you.

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549 thoughts on “Question: Has anyone had a bad experience when entering the US?”

  1. The agent did not stamp my passport, they never do when I enter by car, they only stamp it when I enter by air.

  2. Hope everyone had a peaceful holiday and best wishes for the New Year 2016. I just returned from a trip south of the border. I didn’t want to travel to the US but my very elderly mother can no longer travel to Canada. Travelling with my Canadian passport with US birth place and a copy of my priceless CLN, I crossed the border and returned without incident. Border personnel at the airport asked me where I was going and when I planned to return. They wished me a good trip and happy holidays.

    One of my travelling companions had an interesting story to tell. A permanent resident of Canada since the seventies, she never became a Canadian citizen. Born in the US, “Lizzie” (an alias I have given her) tells me she has the best of both worlds. I ask Lizzie if she is familiar with FATCA and the change in US tax laws. She knows nothing of FATCA stating that she works in Canada and not in the US. I suggest she googles FATCA or looks at the Brock website. Turns out Lizzie doesn’t use the computer at all. She tells me her bank knows that she is from the States and that she often travels across the US border for her Canadian business and for visiting family. I tell Lizzie a little more about FATCA and the IGA between US and Canada. She says, they’ll just have to come get me if they think I owe them anything. She changes the subject and I get the feeling Lizzie doesn’t want to discuss FATCA anymore.

    I wonder how many more “Lizzies” are out there and what will happen to them. People like this seem to be a likely target for the IRS. And because Lizzie is not a Canadian citizen she doesn’t even have protection in Canada. This is also the type of person who would not be a contributor to our lawsuit even though it might help them the most. I hope we get enough contributions to keep going.

  3. The Lizzies in this country and others often make me wonder if mine and ours is all a bad dream.

    Thanks for the comment. Best for the New Year, PatCanadian.

  4. @PatCanadian, yes, I know several people like “Lizzie”. It’s discouraging, almost maddening, that they won’t contribute to the FATCA/IGA charter challenge.

  5. The Lizzie’s of the world only confirm that the curve is yet to come. This isn’t the first time in history that masses of people have benefitted from the struggles of others – almost as though they believe that justice just happens on its own.

    I think that as long as people still feel safe, they’re not compelled to do anything that might “rock the boat” for themselves. Often times that involves shooting (or ignoring) the messenger.

  6. Well I just went through US customs at the airport in Vancouver. I was welcomed home after informing the border agent that my home is Canada. Go figure. Anyway he seemed nice and chatty enough and it wasn’t busy so I mentioned that I was told that as a US citizen I am required to enter on a US passport. He said I was told the right information. I told him that I know of many US citizens who enter the US on their Canadian passports and asked him why the US doesn’t enforce this law. He looked at me kind of surprised and said that if people enter the US on anything other than a US passport, they will be treated as though they are on a tourist visa – that’s all. So all this talk of other agents insisting that US citizens travel on a US passport has more to do with how long you can stay than anything else – at least according to this guy.

  9. I thought it made sense to me too, George. The irony is that even though you’ll be treated as a visitor for entering on a non-US passport, you’re American enough for the IRS though!

    It’s not a matter of putting “bad ideas” in his head, Duke of Devon. It’s a matter of clarifying what the rules are and why. This agent’s opinion explains a lot to me, namely why US citizens aren’t denied entry to the US on another passport.

  10. When I went through US immigration in 2011, in an airport in the US, with my Canadian passport, I was not treated as being on a tourist visa. The US immigration officer stamped my Canadian passport, wrote class NC, and no expiry date. (This is why I think his computer displayed my status, renounced but waiting for CLN.)

    When I went through US immigration in 2013, in an airport in the US, the US immigration officer stamped my Canadian passport, wrote class B2, with an expiry date 6 months later. In other words, I was treated as being on a tourist visa, correctly.

  11. I had traveled on a US passport since the mid-90s after being informed that I required one. I have not crossed the US border since learning of FATCA and CBT in June 2011. Since I was already using a US passport I doubt very much they would allow me the opportunity to return to using my Canadian one. I’m not planning on poking that particular bear. In any regard, it is due to expire soon and I, obviously, have no intention of renewing it.

    Which brings me to my question regarding my now-limited travel opportunities. Does anyone know if I would be required to carry a US passport if I was on a cruise ship that was travelling through, but not stopping in, American waters? Would I be required to carry a US passport if the ship anchored offshore in American waters but I did not go ashore?

  12. Excellent and interesting question, MuzzledNoMore, that should be asked of the cruise ship industry and the answer added to our resources here. Would they already have or in the US FATCA future with ever-increasing US passport qualifications a policy in their business that anchors in US ports? Yes, perhaps some reader here has run into this or one day will.

  14. I should have said “I don’t think they can and will deny you entry solely on the fact that you aren’t entering on a US passport”. I suppose you could be denied entry for other reasons as a visitor to the US.

  15. I only saw US immigration controls on shore, so anyone staying on the ship would not go through immigration.

  16. Thank you so much for your responses, Calgary, Bubblebustin and Norman. Food for thought. On a cruise I took last summer in the eastern Med they collected the passports and kept them in the purser’s office for the duration of the voyage. They were given to the immigration officers in the ports of the various countries we visited. This is partly what has prompted my question. Is the practice different on an Alaska cruise or a Pacific Ocean passage?

    I will have a look at that useful link you provided, Bubblebustin. Thank you so much.

  17. Just a follow-up to my last comment:

    Bubblebustin, I am really puzzled to learn about your experience crossing with a Canadian passport after having used a US one. Was that in pre-computerized days or was it more recently?

    I’m also very puzzled by the advice you recently got from the immigration officer at the airport. I had understood it was illegal for a US citizen to travel to the United States on anything other than a US passport. Perhaps it’s another one of those laws that isn’t strictly enforced until it is. Or one that requires travelers to play “American roulette” when they choose which lane they’re going to line up in at the border. I know that the trouble I’m in today might be a complete non-issue if, 20 years ago, I had chosen a different lane with a different border guard. Just a piece of tragic bad luck that I don’t want to ever repeat.

  18. MuzzledNoMore,

    I’d think that most of us here have traveled on our Canadian passports (especially by car over land) — I did for many years until that fateful day when one US border guard told me he would let me cross this time, but the next time it must be with a US passport (after he saw my US place of birth on that Canadian passport). A blind eye was turned for many years for many a US-deemed *USC* who should have had to follow that US law. Made me question what Mr. Mopsick (I think it was) used to say *The law is the law.* Except when it is not the law or ignored? Just more of the hypocrisy over the years and part of the phenomenon that Allison Christians sets out in her fine new draft: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/01/19/uncle-sam-wants-who-at-ubc-law-this-week-allison-christians-mcgill-university-faculty-of-law/.

  19. I travel at least three times a year to the US on my Canadian passport. I never have had it questioned when driving. When flying I have had it questioned, in fact since 1989. Until FACTA I pled ignorance and was not pushed by the agent (might help that I’m a short white woman so I generally just flutter my eyes and say “oh, really?”). Since FACTA, I said I was “in process” of getting my CLN, meaning I was thinking about applying. I never had the impression I was “in the computer system”. Finally I traveled by car after I had my relinquishment appointment, and nothing was said, so guessing I wasn’t in the computer. I’ll see what happens when next I travel to the US now that I have my CLN.

  20. @Muzzled

    I have no idea when computers starting tracking entries to the US, but it might have started after 911. My US passport had expired long before then and I travelled solely on my Canadian when passports started being required. I began using my renewed US passport to enter the US in 2011, after I’d read that it was required.

    I’ve never heard of any Canadian with US birthplace being denied entry solely on the fact that they didn’t use a US passport. When I asked the border guard why they aren’t enforcing the law, he looked puzzled by my question. I think he looked that way because it’s (according to him) not about denying entry, but determines whether you will enter on a tourist visa or as a citizen.

  21. “On a cruise I took last summer in the eastern Med they collected the passports and kept them in the purser’s office for the duration of the voyage. They were given to the immigration officers in the ports of the various countries we visited.”

    Those were immigration officers of European countries, not the US. In the US, everyone gets to stand in line after disembarking.

  22. ‘Made me question what Mr. Mopsick (I think it was) used to say *The law is the law.* Except when it is not the law or ignored?’

    Except when the IRS is the one wilfully and knowingly violating the law, or the US Department of Justice is the one wilfully and knowingly violating the law, or a court is the one wilfully and knowingly violating the law.

  23. Thanks, everyone, for your assistance with my question. I’m still in the dark about travelling in US territorial waters without a US passport (and without getting off the ship). I’ll do some googling and see if I can come up with any information that will help me and might be of interest to others.

    Thanks again!

  24. MNM,

    Don’t know if this will give you the information you need for *staying on board at any US port* (doesn’t talk about US territorial waters) – http://www.royalcaribbean.com/beforeyouboard/passportGuidelines.do

    And another: https://www.passportsandvisas.com/cruise, but as suggested you might have to:

    You should always check with your cruise ship, travel agent and or destination country to confirm the requirements for entry into the foreign countries you will be visiting.

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