Since their origins, both the Isaac Brock Society and Maple Sandbox have been invaluable sources of information and a productive forum for intelligent discussion. These discussions have matured to a point where we have a much greater understanding of the overreach of the United States government into the lives of those who choose to permanently live outside of the United States or are ‘Accidental Americans’. This summer, we have seen contributors to Brock and Sandbox quoted in various publications and even have articles published in The Hill.
However, in Canada, the issues discussed here, primarily Citizen Based Taxation and FATCA, are virtually invisible to our elected representatives, the media and the general public (with the exception of the Green Party of Canada).
Living in an advanced Western democracy, with a modern and model Constitution, Canadian citizens and permanent residents can and should expect our government to protect us in many ways. We expect police and fire services, safety regulations, affordable and accessible health care,protection of our land, our borders, our resources, and our economy. And when some of those protections fail or are inadequate, we expect public debate and action by our government.
Can anyone honestly say that the Canadian government has protected U.S. persons in Canada from CBT?
We do know that Canada has limited influence over U.S. tax policies. However, except for RRSPs, why haven’t TFSAs, RESPs and RDSPs been included in any of our treaties or other agreements with the U.S.? Instead, they are treated as taxable foreign trusts, with compliance difficulties and penalties.
Why are our mutual funds and ETSs classified as Passive Foreign Investment Corporations, thereby making them subject to discriminatory taxation, complicated forms and penalties for honest mistakes?
As far as FATCA is concerned, the jury is still out. We simply don’t know the shape of a Canada-U.S. FATCA IGA and how it will compromise our Charter rights and freedoms and our privacy rights.
In spite of all the wonderful discussions we have been having, I feel we are hampered by the lack of a legally registered organization with a spokesperson the media can turn to. Instead, on those rare occasions when FATCA or other issues affecting U.S. persons in Canada is mentioned, reporters usually turn to professionals with a vested interest in promoting compliance and fear.
This proposed organization would be one of Canadians defending Canadian interests, values and laws from the intrusion of U.S. extra-territorial taxation.
The organization could begin with just a few core members to get things started and look after the not very difficult or costly task of provincial registration. Then it would recruit members. Both the Maple Sandbox and Isaac Brock Society can be used to promote membership. There would be a small membership fee to defray expenses.
It is my opinion that the organization would be more effective if the core group was located in Ottawa or Toronto. There appears to be a more concentrated population of duals and former Americans in those cities. The location would also be closer to political and media centres, and thus possibly have more legitimacy in the eyes of the media and the powers that be.
The organization itself might not launch any lawsuits over FATCA, but would assist anyone or any other group, such as the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, with both financial and research assistance.
So, the question is, where do we go from here? Is just discussing the problems of CBT and FATCA enough or do we need boots on the ground, so to speak? Please share your ideas.
@all, was out of the loop yesterday. Taking a break to enjoy one of my hobbies, vintage audio…yes, odd for a woman to be into audio but, it is, what it is, much to my spouses chagrin. lol. Needed a break from FATCA.
I think having an official organization is a great idea! We’d be able to better address Canada’s government that way while still including the issues surrounding FATCA and other nations who participate here.
I agree, Only a Canadian, that such an organization should continue to be inclusive to other US Persons around the world.
It is important that there be a stronger and hopefully more effective effort to fully educate all of our Canadian government representatives and all of its Canadian citizens and residents. I feel that portions of the US media have listened and told more of our the ‘US Person Abroad’ story than the Canadian media. The concerted effort should be the Canadian government, the Canadian media and Canadian citizens / residents standing behind those of us who are considered ‘US Persons,’ as ‘there but for the grace of God go all Canadians.’
The Canadian government may be listening better than governments of other countries. If the government of Canada can find its voice to say, NO — we WILL uphold the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms against the overreach of a FOREIGN sovereign country; ALL of our Canadian people have the same rights and we’re not going to waive those rights for some because of a real or supposed secondary US nationality, which is blatant discrimination.
If Canada stands strong, it can only benefit and strengthen the backbone of governments of other countries.
Thanks to all who have commented ( perhaps with one exception).
I also now agree that, although the organization would be primarily Canadian with a focus on the Canadian government, it should be open to all present or former US persons anywhere, who feel they can contribute.
And, to repeat something said at Sandbox:
What I think needs to happen is for a small group to act on their own to get things going. Then they can reach out to others who might be willing to join an organization as long as the member list is kept confidential
But no one appears willing to step out of the shadows. I still hope that at least a few people with CLNs, and no need to worry about other family members, will come forward.Or it could be individuals and family members who are fully compliant with U.S.taxes but find their situation quite distasteful and unfair. Or it could be others who are braver than the most of us.
@Hazy,
I agree, that the organization should primarily be Canadian, but open to others. Canada is in a unique position with the most ‘US slaves’….err ‘Us Persons’ per ca pita, and any momentum achieved here with respect to killing a Canadian IGA will be positive for all US persons. I think, ideally that each country should have its own organization to deal with its own government. Personally, I have a hard time thinking I should lobby against the US government because I don’t feel like I am ‘American’ and do not expect anything from USA other than to be left alone. My Canadian government is who I am looking for to protect me from USA’s claim that I am one of their people.
I think there are a lot of people, myself included, who would be involved, but not willing to step too far out of the shadows due to the status of their ‘compliancy’. There would be lots to do, and not all the work would involve ‘outing’ oneself. For example, someone earlier talked about all the Canadian residents who still have no clue of the coming tsunami, and need to be educated. How do we go about getting the word out to these people before their banks do?
Hazy, I also hope, that a few who have nothing to lose anymore, but have a big bone of contention, will be willing to take a more public leadership role.
There are important lessons that “US persons” in Canada from the gay rights movement…
As long as gays remained in the closet to avoid discrimination, they were powerless. In 1991, Delwin Vriend, an instructor at an Alberta Christian school, came out and challenged the status quo in his workplace: he lost his job but eventually took his discrimination case to Supreme Court of Canada. His 1998 Supreme Court victory was the turning point for gay rights in Canada, making sexual orientation a prohibited ground for discrimination and paving the way for legalization of gay marriage.
US-born Canadians are in a similar conundrum. But….
1) Until there is an ACTIONABLE EVENT IN CANADA – such as an attempt by government to pass an IGA, or bank closing a Canadian’s bank account because of birthplace – there are no grounds for a legal challenge to FATCA in Canada.
2) The situation of US-born persons in Canada is also unique because many of their everyday activities – having a bank account, investing in mutual funds, opening an RESP – have been essentially “criminalized” according to the laws of a foreign state. However, these foreign laws also have no force or effect in Canada, so there is no actionable event to take to a Canadian court. It also does not appear that the US has any appetite for pursuing US-born Canadians in Canadian courts regarding these matters, and is instead attempting to use the financial services industry as their surrogates.
So for now, this is a campaign of fear. The angst, ill-will and distress are real however. We have to take individual decisions as to how we will respond, and the reluctance to share one’s individual and family demographics publicly is certainly an issue for many (including me) at this juncture. People are ultimately politicized and form movements because of things that harm them directly and inescapably. It’s practically a law of nature. For now, the Internet is the Tahrir Square of this movement.
@Hazy and all, I agree that there is a need for an organization based in Canada with open membership. My bias is that the focus should be on lobbying Canada to begin protecting us from US harms.
The organization could be mostly virtual and possibly partly local (Skype?) and “affiliated” with IBS and Sandbox. It probably needs at least one politically savvy person based in Ottawa or within driving distance willing to speak repeatedly to government people.
Is it essential that the organization be “registered”? Would Canada lobby laws apply?
Regarding identity disclosure, I suppose that the best scenario would be if there were one person willing to head the organization, take a public leadership role (as WhiteKat says) and disclose identity. Perhaps such a person cannot be found, or found right away, but I think that the organization could still be useful even if led by a small group of (un-named) people with input from members.
The fact that members do not wish to disclose makes a point to the government and public.
@IRSCompliantForever
I agree and take back what I said earlier. Those who fear being identified are a HUGE part of the story.
I’ve made no attempt to educate or plead with American politicians. Why would I? I’m Canadian and they’d flick me off like a speck of lint anyway. I have, however, individually e-mailed all of our Canadian MPs (except the Blocs). I never mention my particular situation to these MPs because it’s too messed up to try to explain and besides I use my real name when I e-mail them so I feel it’s best to just keep things informative in a general sense and ,yes, opinionated too (can’t avoid that). I feel like my efforts though are just flappin’ in the wind and would love to see a small group with the large talents that I know exist present a strong campaign to counter the USA’s latest fatwa against its USPs. I can help financially at least.
@IRSCompliantForever
You made a very good suggestion “The fact that members do not wish to disclose makes a point to the government and public”
However, the organization may be seen as more legitimate if it is legally registered. An organization’s legal status and its directors may be checked by someone in government or the media to verify its legitimacy
Being registered would also allow the opening of a bank or Credit Union account in the name of the organization.
As far as government lobbying is concerned, I really don’t know. Perhaps someone else can answer that.
WhiteKat – I also hope, that a few who have nothing to lose anymore, but have a big bone of contention, will be willing to take a more public leadership role.
Not you. Not anyone who ever wants (or might have to) to cross the US border again with minimized risk. Not anyone who suspects they may have assets that could be rendered encumberable or confiscatable by the unilateral arbitrary actions of a willful oppressor. Not anyone whose final IRS filings still fall within statute of limitations provisions. Not anyone who does not want to commit to an unremunerated open-ended cause that will certainly consume most of their personal disposable time. Not anyone who does not want to take up a position of representing a vague and unverifiable constituency. Not me.
Who then?
Brockers,
Democrats abroad are all volunteer but we all are. I sent a message to a person at DAB not knowing I could actually vote in local elections for the first time since 1985 when I left the Statue of Liberty. There is no way expats can figure out what changes or existing rules are for chaining US citizens abroad. The MOVE act I never heard of but it is too late. My second appt is in one week in Vancouver and I am psyched. Good by USA. Also on this blog I admire the founder who was brave enough to post that he never did his form something or rather with the long number, abbreviation FBAR. It is not in the IRS realm so for those of us who renounce, forget FBAR it is not an IRS issue.
This is what he/she said (covering identity).
Hi Kermit,
Sorry I didn’t reply earlier but I’m on a trip with my family.
Yes, the MOVE Act does apply to all US citizens living abroad, not just military personnel. I’m sorry you didn’t know about voting from abroad. Democrats Abroad does our best to get the word out, but we’re a volunteer organization so our resources are limited. But that’s why I wanted to let you know the correct information.
Also, if you know anyone else who needs the information or needs help getting registered to vote, please pass it on or have them contact us – we’re here to help!
Hope you are enjoying what’s left of the summer – xxx
@usxcanada,
Point well taken. Food for thought. Thanks.
@wondering and usxcanada
I think the two of you have, for now and certainly for me, hit the nail on the head.
My only further comment would be an addendum to Wondering’s point about the Internet being the Tahir Square for now, is to expand that to include email chains and particularly to emailings many us have been doing and continue to do with our MPs, relevant cabinet and shadow-cabinet ministers, party leaders, and even some nomination candidates in some by-election ridings.
Until there is an IGA out in the open under which some identifiable people have suffered identifiable damage, thereby laying clear grounds for a Charter and other court challenges, there’s too much wheel spinning right now, at least to my tastes. But lobbying the pols at every opportunity, and stressing how much damage compliance with the US may do to their precious political careers especially if they’re in marginal ridings, is another story IMO.
Keep on hammering at our politicians, post what you can when you can on media sites, do what you can to shed your USC as soon as you can if you haven’t already, and for goodness’ sake dump any “US source” investments in your possession NOW. Thirty percent of nothing is nothing.
This can all be done by individuals and doesn’t require any kind of formal organization. Organizations bring all sorts of complications, burdens, and problems all their own, and sensible people think long and hard, and look very carefully, before diving off that board. At least I do.
One further addendum … if you can, form or join up with a small, informal mutual-support group in your community (however broadly defined), if you can. This has already happened here in Ottawa, and probably in other major centres (Vancouver, Toronto, …?) Being able to meet face-to-face with people you can trust and who share your concerns, can be therapeutic. If nothing else, you can vent … but off-line, informal, non-possibly-monitored discussions and idea-kicking-around can maybe get somewhere. Keep your eyes and ears open … e.g., if at a bus stop you overhear some stressed-out person muttering obscenities about the US, FATCA, etc …. you never know when you might trip over an opportunity.
Any reader of successful guerilla and asymmetrical warfare knows that organizations make tempting targets. Informal cells are a lot harder to combat, and they can be very effective even in non-violent conflicts.
schubert1975 – Here’s a strong second to your sage addendum.
Hi Ed. I think creating an organized body led by and for Canadians affected by FATCA is an excellent idea, and one that could lend itself to the integration of analysis and advocacy of many likeminded groups. Grassroots efforts like this are what democracy is made of, and I commend your efforts! Elizabeth
@ Elizabeth May
Thank you for your comment and the strong statement made by the Green Party on Jan 28, 2013.
http://www.greenparty.ca/statement/2013-01-28/backgrounder-canada-and-fatca
Great response. What’s next?
Thank you so much Elizabeth. You give me so much hope and I thank you for taking the time for commenting here.
Welcome Elizabeth. If anyone can advise on organizing on a grass roots level, it would be you. As Blaze asks, what next? I seem to recall you held a lot of hope that Ambassador Jacobson would work to further our interests, or was he using appeasing words to allow him to escape unscathed?
Happy to say I voted for your party last time ’round.
I am so happy right now.
@WhiteKat
You should be. And thanks for making us happy too. 😉
Edit button! I really type too fast and am always making typos because of it. At any rate I am really, really encouraged to have had word from Ms. May here. I have often gone back to read your comments on FATCA when I needed a little encouragement.
@ WhiteKat and AtticusinCanada
I was out for several hours this afternoon and I’m exhausted from trying to get caught up on Brock and the G&M comments … but I’m happy too! The TWO MOM PROTEST and encouragement from ELIZABETH MAY — good stuff! 🙂
BTW I have sometimes Issac’d Isaac. No matter which way you put it in a search it gets you to the right place. No big deal. (I even FACTA’d FATCA throughout an entire e-mail to Flaherty once.)
Congratulations, Trisha Moon!