Since their origins, both the Isaac Brock Society and Maple Sandbox have been invaluable sources of information and a productive forum for intelligent discussion. These discussions have matured to a point where we have a much greater understanding of the overreach of the United States government into the lives of those who choose to permanently live outside of the United States or are ‘Accidental Americans’. This summer, we have seen contributors to Brock and Sandbox quoted in various publications and even have articles published in The Hill.
However, in Canada, the issues discussed here, primarily Citizen Based Taxation and FATCA, are virtually invisible to our elected representatives, the media and the general public (with the exception of the Green Party of Canada).
Living in an advanced Western democracy, with a modern and model Constitution, Canadian citizens and permanent residents can and should expect our government to protect us in many ways. We expect police and fire services, safety regulations, affordable and accessible health care,protection of our land, our borders, our resources, and our economy. And when some of those protections fail or are inadequate, we expect public debate and action by our government.
Can anyone honestly say that the Canadian government has protected U.S. persons in Canada from CBT?
We do know that Canada has limited influence over U.S. tax policies. However, except for RRSPs, why haven’t TFSAs, RESPs and RDSPs been included in any of our treaties or other agreements with the U.S.? Instead, they are treated as taxable foreign trusts, with compliance difficulties and penalties.
Why are our mutual funds and ETSs classified as Passive Foreign Investment Corporations, thereby making them subject to discriminatory taxation, complicated forms and penalties for honest mistakes?
As far as FATCA is concerned, the jury is still out. We simply don’t know the shape of a Canada-U.S. FATCA IGA and how it will compromise our Charter rights and freedoms and our privacy rights.
In spite of all the wonderful discussions we have been having, I feel we are hampered by the lack of a legally registered organization with a spokesperson the media can turn to. Instead, on those rare occasions when FATCA or other issues affecting U.S. persons in Canada is mentioned, reporters usually turn to professionals with a vested interest in promoting compliance and fear.
This proposed organization would be one of Canadians defending Canadian interests, values and laws from the intrusion of U.S. extra-territorial taxation.
The organization could begin with just a few core members to get things started and look after the not very difficult or costly task of provincial registration. Then it would recruit members. Both the Maple Sandbox and Isaac Brock Society can be used to promote membership. There would be a small membership fee to defray expenses.
It is my opinion that the organization would be more effective if the core group was located in Ottawa or Toronto. There appears to be a more concentrated population of duals and former Americans in those cities. The location would also be closer to political and media centres, and thus possibly have more legitimacy in the eyes of the media and the powers that be.
The organization itself might not launch any lawsuits over FATCA, but would assist anyone or any other group, such as the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, with both financial and research assistance.
So, the question is, where do we go from here? Is just discussing the problems of CBT and FATCA enough or do we need boots on the ground, so to speak? Please share your ideas.
@Steve Klaus -I too would join any organisation set up to fight FATCA, FBARs and the whole rats nest of CBT. bring it on.
It might also help if all our groups could consolidate our energies and efforts; perhaps we could encourage ACA to merge with Brock into a truly international organization. Strength in numbers and all that…
@monalisa1776, exactly!
@bubblebustin
It’s hard to say what the US government can even do in that circumstance. But, the US government doesn’t have the right to stick its business in the affairs of foreigners. Even if those foreigners happen to be former US persons.
Unfortunately for me, I’m still a US person and not yet a Canadian. That is why I won’t out myself at this time.
For those who feel the solution lies in trying to influence the American Congress, all I can say is Good Luck! If the Congress can ignore the substantial lobbying efforts of farming organization over the passage of a new farm bill, what chance do ex-pats have? If you want to go that route, I suggest the ACA, with all its warts, is the way to go.
Personally, I’ll take a poutine over American pie any day of the week.
@monalisa1776
As interesting as the idea is, I believe that for those of us that have renounced or are interested in renouncing, we would be best served by an organization that will work to ensure that our governments will protect us from the US government, rather than try to change US policy. I for one believe that if the US had a system that was actually responsive to positive and meaningful change, that I wouldn’t be trying to head for the exit myself.
One of the reasons I started this thread is the frustration of seeing so many immigrant groups, some with a relatively small number in Canada, speak out on issues related to their birth country or discrimination experienced in Canada. In some cases, speaking out could possible endanger the physical safety of family members in their homeland. Yet Americans or former Americans have no such group in Canada, as far as I know.
Hopefully, speaking out against American taxation policies won’t put family members living in the States in any physical danger.
Immigrants might form groups not only for political reasons, but for social and linguistic reasons as well.
However, fear is a constant subject brought up here. It is an economic fear and a fear of invasion of private financial information. This fear is likely a main factor why most of us choose to remain anonymous and not form a group.
Another factor is that most American immigrants to Canada are fully integrated into Canadian society, unlike, for example, Somali-Canadians. Have you ever heard of anyone referred to as an American-Canadian? And then we have the ‘Accidental Americans’, many of whom had no idea they were considered to be U.S. persons.
More to come.
It’s great. Hopefully it gets setup somehow for the high volume of Canoodians, but is also open to those living in other countries (such as self, but also like Mexico which has the same volume)
Once again, ACA is very careful to ensure its effectiveness by working strictly with USA and not with other countries. That helps keep its effectiveness while speaking directly with US legislators. For that it can be supported personally as a separate entity. The organizations need not compete for members.
A separate organization iis helpful in that it may not limit itself in that way. It can be run totally separate, although sharing most of the same goals. There ought not be any conflicts for any individual to be a membe of each—memberships are supposed to be a private affair.
@Mjh, I agree in theory but many countries (including the UK ) appear to be willing to fully cooperate with the US. I don’t believe we’re going to make much headway with the Poodle…might be an idea in Canada though where there are more people affected .
Plus many former US persons will still be wary if they’ve only recently expatriated. I personally don’t feel safe coming out until my statutes of limitation of closed….
@Hazy
I’m in the camp that believes activism can still make a difference, but am realistic to the fact that the US government is stuck on stupid for the time being. I’m sure many are asking if outing oneself is worth the risk if in the end it won’t make an iota of difference in the outcome.
It’s my rage against the persecution of US persons abroad that compels me to write to MP’s, congressmen and senators, newspapers, banking associations, expat associations, etc, etc. Anyone who cares to listen can make whatever projections they want to about who I am and what motivates me, but it’s not going to determine what I feel I need to do right now.
There are those who believe that government created this problem therefore government must be the solution. For many, lining up in a government queue to turn in one’s passport can be an expression of this belief, especially if they have the conviction that adding their name to the list of renunciations will make a difference. Sauve que peut.
Another possibility is to ask an existing Canadian organization to take up our cause. According to Blaze, the CCLA is on standby should a court challenge be necessary. But, prior to that, perhaps a group such as the Council of Canadians can be approached to make this one of their issues.
If any organization is willing to take on this matter, we should support them financially as much as possible.
And, don’t forget the Green Party of Canada. They have issued a strongly worded press release back in January fully in support of the positions advocated here. They deserve much credit and praise for their statement.
How about the Canadian Taxpayers Federation? To start, just how much will it cost Canadian taxpayers to implement an IGA?
http://www.taxpayer.com/home/
@monalisa1776
I hear you. Frankly though, if I was a dual citizen of the US and some other country, then I would always be stuck between that rock, and that hard place, wondering whether the country I’m in will either go to bat for me as one of their citizens, or sell me out, thanks to things like FATCA.
Unfortunately for me, I’m only a permanent resident of Canada with a US passport, and I have since accepted that nobody is going to bat for me for as long as I remain in that status. For me, keeping my wife free of the FATCA menace is my top priority, even as I’ll be compelled to sign my own rights away at some point in the future. She’ll never get an ITIN number, I’ll never file joint, I won’t even bother with the annual absentee voter registration crap anymore, and every year that I have to fight through the IRS paperwork is a reminder that only renouncing will actually end my nightmare.
Perhaps in the future when I’m Canadian and ONLY Canadian, I will out myself. Or maybe I’ll just be an anonymous donor to a legally organized Issac Brock Society if that so happens.
I started an email discussion with the Greens of Canada, to get their internationals fired up. They were unsuccessful in getting other nations to react and they let it slide in interest of focusing Manpower on fighting Keystone and other such.
Hazy – More to come?
Revisit this: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/05/25/anti-americanism-in-canada/
The situation is chaos.
The first step toward clarity is to gaze straight into the heart of chaos.
(Trick: Chaos has no heart. Trick: There is no first step. Trick: Nothing is straight.)
While tumblebumbling in four dimensions, latch onto your fave authority – indecipherable IRS memo, entanglements of US tax code morass, guru Phil Hodgen, guru Michael Miller, guru guy from Moodys, what worked for somebody else and looks about the same, exactly the same thing from year and a half ago though conditions have changed, an nth new compliance program winking away on the horizon, how consulate A triangulates with consulates B and C, the mana of a karass like ACA or Brock or Dems Abroad. Hug your fave to mutual death as you never find firm ground.
Four dimensions. Not only can you not determine which direction is up or which is forward, the present bleeds toward the past with unreconcilable conundrums like the notorious backdated CLN. Pin your hopes to the undocumentable oracle from the inner sanctum as intoned by guru Miller with academic rectitude. Reinforce your proclivities by appeal to sheer illogic of retroactivities, while repressing the extensive evidence that the essence of dealing with IRS is perpetual uncertainty. Know that no closure will ever come from simple acknowledgment. Pray that a stream of repetitive compounding threats do not get unleashed by an unreachable computer. Cling for years to the fact that possible notice of audit has never yet arrived. Speculate about the variety of possible SOLs (heh heh) and their exclusions and limitations.
There is no magic. Do the drudgery and take a stab. Or suppose you can offload the incomprehensibility by paying big bucks to an intermediary who will then disclaim all liability in ways that you still cannot understand. (The snare and snarl of infinite regress.) Or do nothing and transmogrify into ostrich ogling darkness.
Understand that you have been a US person. Realize that in certain aspects you will never cease to be at least a potential US person. Be certain that only a US person can love a US person.
Celebrate successive degrees of defrightenment achieved through stages of initiation – whether meditation fixed on turgid archive, bathing in the stream of verbiage of which this constitutes one swirl, acquisition of new citizenships, reiterations of multiple backfilings, successive supplications at multiple consulate thresholds, navigating congeries of oaths and affidavits, CLNS with their replications and preservations, convolutions of 8854 forms of exit, ever proliferating instructions for FBAR.
Sauve qui peut.
You’re right, usx. There certainly is no magic.
But, do you have any words of advice in layman’s language? Throw up our hands in despair?
Correct, “Sauve qui peut.”
I have some words…..
Live your life. Renounce. Get that CLN, and live your life.
@mjh49783 can you survive/prosper without leaving your country of permanent residence? If so you can go stateless, I know its not a popular option but it’s an option to rid yourself of U.S. citizenship.
Also being stateless in some situations allows you to obtain citizenship early in some countries.
I’ll be sitting back and eating my popcorn…;)
Prioritizing what to fear…
Despite millions of words on the subject in this and other sites, there does not appear to be a single verified case of a US-born Canadian citizen being detained at the US border for tax filing issues – or of a successful collection action here in Canada regarding same.
However, the risks of being killed or injured by gunshot while visiting the US are quite real: being shot in a shopping mall or food court or theater or school, being shot by an irate stranger or stoned mugger or psychotic neuroscience student or army psychiatrist or gang member or vigilante or belligerent driver. After an brilliant young Australian athlete on a US baseball scholarship was gunned down by bored teenagers in Oklahoma, there is talk down under about a boycott of US travel.
The compelling hazard south of our border is an uncontrollable epidemic of firearms resulting in a public health crisis of firearm deaths and injuries. The estimated total number of guns (both licit and illicit) held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,000 to 310,000,000.
Conduct your travel plans accordingly.
Annual US deaths resulting from firearms (total):
2011: 32,163
2010: 31,672
2009: 31,347
2008: 31,593
2007: 31,224
2006: 30,896
2005: 30,694
2004: 29,569
2003: 30,136
2002: 30,242
2001: 29,573
(all stats are from GunPolicy.org)
@Wondering those number seem on par with U.S. motor vehicle deaths, just don’t drive with a gun and you should be pretty safe as about half of gun deaths are suicides.
United States, annual firearm suicides total
2011: 19,766
2010: 19,392
2009: 18,735
2008: 18,223
2007: 17,352
2006: 16,883
2005: 17,002
2004: 16,750
2003: 16,907
2002: 17,108
2001: 16,869
2000: 16,586
1999: 16,599
List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
I believe I would be okay being stateless while waiting to apply for Canadian citizenship. Problem is, the wife likes to visit the US for some strange reason. I don’t know about anyone here, but having Doritos Locos Tacos on occasion simply doesn’t require my having a US passport. Personally, I think she’ll need to deal with it, but that is something that she and I will need to further discuss. Meanwhile, we’re also in the middle of planning to make a move back up to Northern Ontario within the next couple of months. Right now, I’m just too busy trying to live life to deal with running to the US consulate just yet, and if all else fails, I’ll just relinquish it once I become Canadian.
I would sign up to fight the rar bas***ds.
I think Hazy has some pretty good thoughts here. It may well be a good idea for a Canadian based organization, but I would also suggest that even though it would likely be aimed at holding the Canadian politicians’ feet to the fire, it is also a good idea to allow/invite participation from anyone outside Canada as well. I think IBS, for example has some very good contributors from Europe who not only would contribute ideas, thoughts, whatever, but I am sure they are interested in what is happening in Canada where so many current and former USPs are resident.