Since their origins, both the Isaac Brock Society and Maple Sandbox have been invaluable sources of information and a productive forum for intelligent discussion. These discussions have matured to a point where we have a much greater understanding of the overreach of the United States government into the lives of those who choose to permanently live outside of the United States or are ‘Accidental Americans’. This summer, we have seen contributors to Brock and Sandbox quoted in various publications and even have articles published in The Hill.
However, in Canada, the issues discussed here, primarily Citizen Based Taxation and FATCA, are virtually invisible to our elected representatives, the media and the general public (with the exception of the Green Party of Canada).
Living in an advanced Western democracy, with a modern and model Constitution, Canadian citizens and permanent residents can and should expect our government to protect us in many ways. We expect police and fire services, safety regulations, affordable and accessible health care,protection of our land, our borders, our resources, and our economy. And when some of those protections fail or are inadequate, we expect public debate and action by our government.
Can anyone honestly say that the Canadian government has protected U.S. persons in Canada from CBT?
We do know that Canada has limited influence over U.S. tax policies. However, except for RRSPs, why haven’t TFSAs, RESPs and RDSPs been included in any of our treaties or other agreements with the U.S.? Instead, they are treated as taxable foreign trusts, with compliance difficulties and penalties.
Why are our mutual funds and ETSs classified as Passive Foreign Investment Corporations, thereby making them subject to discriminatory taxation, complicated forms and penalties for honest mistakes?
As far as FATCA is concerned, the jury is still out. We simply don’t know the shape of a Canada-U.S. FATCA IGA and how it will compromise our Charter rights and freedoms and our privacy rights.
In spite of all the wonderful discussions we have been having, I feel we are hampered by the lack of a legally registered organization with a spokesperson the media can turn to. Instead, on those rare occasions when FATCA or other issues affecting U.S. persons in Canada is mentioned, reporters usually turn to professionals with a vested interest in promoting compliance and fear.
This proposed organization would be one of Canadians defending Canadian interests, values and laws from the intrusion of U.S. extra-territorial taxation.
The organization could begin with just a few core members to get things started and look after the not very difficult or costly task of provincial registration. Then it would recruit members. Both the Maple Sandbox and Isaac Brock Society can be used to promote membership. There would be a small membership fee to defray expenses.
It is my opinion that the organization would be more effective if the core group was located in Ottawa or Toronto. There appears to be a more concentrated population of duals and former Americans in those cities. The location would also be closer to political and media centres, and thus possibly have more legitimacy in the eyes of the media and the powers that be.
The organization itself might not launch any lawsuits over FATCA, but would assist anyone or any other group, such as the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, with both financial and research assistance.
So, the question is, where do we go from here? Is just discussing the problems of CBT and FATCA enough or do we need boots on the ground, so to speak? Please share your ideas.
@all. I am waiting for my CLN…been Canadian citizen since 1993 after living 24 years in Canada. FATCA scares me . But what also scares me more is how many Canadians do not believe it is real and especially Americans who are Canadian citizens or permanent residents..They are unaware or do not believe that anything bad will happen.
I will join up with you all, and also contribute money or dues and time. Toronto and Ottawa and other major Canadian cities are the best place to gather. I am willing to travel a very long drive to go to these meetings. I would like to see papers printed with simple and concise information about what FATCA is and how it will change America persons living in Canada We could put these up in local places like grocery and mall bulletin boards and libraries. This is where the American persons go to. One of their friends could read it and make them aware. We have to put out this FATCA information. Too few know of it. We have to really point out how real it is.
Another thought is this organization can approach our MPs and our local media in a group.
We are really invisible and FATCA is unknown to most Canadians.
Not brilliant — punitive — fence your people in. (%$#*$)
@PoliticalXpat, Exactly. In my suggestions I recently sent to Congress (see pages 5-6 here), I wrote how the Reed amendment is counterproductive.
Thanks, Shadow. Very interesting reading – I read the whole document and encourage others here to as well.
Sadly, I doubt congress will bother to read it. Your arguments are based on sound logic – something congress isn’t interested in. They lack an emotional message that can be spun to make the congressman look like s/he is “doing something” to benefit their constituents, or an indication of how there’s money in it for the congressman (all they care about).
What we really need is to figure out how to influence a sitting senator to tell Schumer “I’ll support your bill if you delete the retroactive clause”. Best way to do that would be to find a covered expatriate who has a personal relationship with a senator. Any thoughts on how to find one?
Just another observation… I doubt Schumer et al have even thought this through far enough to recognize that their bill effectively discourages payment of the exit tax.
The whole reason to pay the exit tax is to obey the law and not fall into trouble with the IRS. You could easily just tear up your U.S. passport, forget about filing taxes or formally expatriating, and just leave without paying EITHER your last year’s income tax or your exit tax. The whole reason NOT to do that is that if you did, you might never be allowed back in.
If EX-PATRIOT passes, there will be no reason for expatriates to pay the exit tax. They will just buy a one-way ticket out of the country, and leave without paying any tax, knowing they were not going to be allowed back to visit either way.
These guys are such idiots…
I like the idea of a core Canadian group which could issue press releases, lobby politicians and become the go-to people when journalists seek accurate information. With the CND-USA FATCA IGA hammer ready to fall on our heads it would be good to have something in place ahead of time to deflect the blow. Of course we will also need to “lawyer up” when the time comes and believe me my wallet will be wide open to help with that too. The protest against US CBT and FATCA needs to be taken up a notch — the sooner, the better. Meanwhile it’s great having Brockers and Sandboxers so willing to help others in their OMG moments and doing whatever they can to educate politicians and the public.
@PoliticalXpat, my answer, which I suspect will not be helpful, is that Reed and Schumer must be impeached.
Both swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and yet both, I feel knowingly, are promoting legislation that contradicts the Constitution. Read this lengthy constitutional analysis by Worster on the US exit tax (at ACA website) and just substitute the phrase “Reed Amendment and variations” for “exit tax.”
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1628568
These “persons” are not allowed to knowingly promote legislation that will “..chill the exercise of [my] fundamental right of expatriation.”
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1628568
Impeachment could begin with a simple petition.
And back to “where do we go from here”. Birthing a core group could be fun too. We’d get to suggest names. All I’ve come up with so far is CRUST (Citizens for Relief from US Taxation). CRUST rhymes with TRUST and maybe there’s a poem or song parody in that somewhere. Cheers everyone! 🙂
How about finding senators who say they won’t support it at all? I’d rather put my energy into that.
@Em
If anyone could pay that poetic justice, it would be you! You could even do an expansion of ‘crustiness’ to rhyme with ‘trustiness’, to associate with ‘truthiness’ in reference to what US lawmakers like to spew about US persons abroad.
Somewhat along those lines, I’ve been wondering if it would make sense to try to organize USCs abroad to vote against any incumbent that is not on record supporting RBT. Personally, I have an issue with single issue voting and litmus tests, but I’d be more than willing to overlook it in this case (and it’s not like “offshore” USCs’ have any real representation anyway).
Could there be any swing states where USCs could make a difference?
Does this make any sense, or is it an out-to-lunch idea?
@IRSCompliant
As a matter of PRINCIPLE, you won’t find anyone who agrees with everything you said more than me. But as a PRACTICAL matter, the unfortunate reality is that Schumer is under consideration for party leadership, not impeachment. We here might think impeachment is more appropriate, but the sad reality is the former greatest nation on earth has devolved to the point where congress simply isn’t accountable to the Constitution any more.
@Bubblebustin
Unfortunately, nobody has a good enough political incentive to fight to get it taken out. Plenty of room for Schumer and company to spin it as if they are trying to protect tax cheats or somesuch nonsense, and nothing in it for them to fight to have it removed.
I think that a lobbying effort focused on getting the retroactive clause taken out has a chance of actually being successful. Sadly, I don’t think getting it taken out completely is a realistic or useful goal, even if it’s the right thing.
@IRSCompliantForever
It would be pretty fun to see those two clowns impeached, but I doubt I’ll see it in my lifetime.
What I would like to see is some rich US person that is disgruntled enough to renounce, and to have a big enough mouth, as well as a skilled enough lawyer, to challenge the constitutionality of the exit tax. But alas, I don’t really see that happening, either. It’s just easier to leave as quietly and as unmemorable as possible.
@PoliticalXpat
Yes, If one doesn’t care to ever visit the US again, then why even bother with the tax forms after you renounce? You can simply have your CLN in hand to defend yourself at the bank against the FATCA beast, and just be done with it.
However, there is one issue to consider. If they have significant family ties that would cause them to have a need to go back and visit, then they’re going to have a problem. On the other hand, if those significant ties can also be relocated with the renunciant…..
Snooze. Mouseys poke noses out of hidey-holes to chat about designating outed fellow mouseys to “represent” a few more who are willing to go public as “members.” Ding-dong kitty-cat!
Membership is as problematic a notion as the crystallization of a karass is.
The essence of groupism is splittism. Manifestations of that tendency already strew the wake …
Gaze on as innie navel wrestles outie navel?
Persons obsessed with DTM (doing the media) and LTA (lobbying the authorities) seek to become more than themselves to add shine to their pearls.
Truth is a two-handed sword.
Sauve qui peut.
Oh cheese, usxcanada. Maybe you could tell us (in plain words) how it must have been that you saved yourself. That might be helpful. I’m doing the best I can to save myself but I’m not brilliant (like you) so I appreciate other people’s ideas.
@usxcanada
Yep. No way I would ever stick my neck out in hopes of being believed. I shouldn’t have to do that, and not only that, there is no guarantee that I would be believed by anyone, even if I did.
Start Canadian but think globally. Of course Canadians will have fears of coming out, with family close by in the US, frequent needs to cross the borders. Look down the road. An organisation with “International” in its name will garner a greater number of members. The majority of the American diaspora comprises non-Canadians, does it not? One day if FATCA comes to full fruition (heaven forbid…) there will be millions of overseas Americans affected. For them a sudden crisis when they’re forced out of the woodwork. People will be desperate to find advice, support, information, the very gems which get shared on this web site. Many may be Spanish-speakers wanting material which they can understand, including accidental Hispanic US persons or minor children whose parents cannot renounce for them. A time may be coming when expat Americans world-wide are looking for some group to help and support them (and not the ACA which is rubbish). The US plays the divide-and-conquer game with great skill. There’s a mini United Nations of expats who will be looking for guidance in countries around the world. Wouldn’t it be stronger were there to be one large organisation including everyone globally, versus every individual country having its own little version of IBS activists coming together. Let Canadians take the lead, with your vibrant democracy, wonderful ideas, and impressive numbers, But bring the rest of us along and a much louder voice should eventually result.
As someone who is deeply affected by FATCA and CBT, and who reads IBS and news relating to FATCA everyday, I would encourage the IBS to form an entity in Canada and to become active as an organized group. Regrettably, I am not a Canadian/US dual citizen but rather a dual of another country. Having watched this FATCA drama unfold now since 2010, it is clear that Canada is a key country, and dual Canadian/US Persons resident in Canada have a unique opportunity to force these issues to be brought out and litigated in the Canadian courts and the debated in the legislature. An organization modeled perhaps on ACA but focussed on FATCA, with a lobbying arm, a media arm, and a litigation support arm (working with for example, the Canadian Civil Liberties Union and legal experts) may make the most sense.
In terms of funding, I would certainly join as a non Canadian member, but the larger picture needs to attract supporters who will be named plaintiffs in class action suits in Canada and provide donations to support litigation and lobbying efforts. Frankly, with ‘secret’ negotiations going on for an IGA for some time, we can’t wait any longer.
To be honest, I have only been to Canada a few times in my life for brief trips, and I have lived outside the US for many years now, but I have developed a huge amount of respect for Canada and Canadians as a result of my experience with IBS and the quality of its members. If I could magically turn that toxis blue passport into a Canadian passport, I would be pleased and honored to call myself a Canadian.
Pour considerations…
A significant proportion of dual Canadians are francophones(!!!)…this is A fundamental nature of our country “A mari usque ad mare”…
It might be time to try opening to this important segment of the Canadian population…which is certainly not better served than the anglophone portion (communications-wise) by the US imperialism…
À bat FATCA !!!(en anglais ou/et en français!) Voir:
http://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act
Steve, you comment is probably like 90% who do not regularly comment on IBS. There is so much to be learned by all the blogs here. It made my renounce a simple issue (in 8 days I go for my second appt in Vancouver).
As far as a new entity, I like the kind of radical rants here, and American Citizens Abroad is naive and do not know the issues for us in Canada, like we have the greatest number of Americans “abroad” and yet we are defined as overseas. We need a Canadian entity, and the current name is fine to me.
My critical comment is that this blog need to be more inclusive but without omitting the exciting commentary. I needs to gather the interest of the masses in Canada that do not know the FATCA hammer will hit them in the head (I hope this is not true). I guess a model like HuffPost although Bubblebustin said something about Victoria in our lunch in Vancouver last month.
@mjh49783
What will the USG then do when they realize that these CLN waiving bank customers are flying under the radar and shirking their tax obligations, just as those without the scourge of a US birthplace are doing?
As suggested in earlier comments, it would be important for a group like this to adopt almost a myopic focus on our own federal government’s reaction to US demands, without a having to expend energy on anything more than a general concern about what other countries are doing. Many a good idea is abandoned due to becoming overly ambitious. KISS.
@usxcanada
In the spirit of the day, we shall overcome.
Kermitzil. Could you let us know how you got an appointment in Vancouver? It appears to be just about impossible.
KalC I replied before. I applied for my first appointment in early November. That was the last time before one can ever get an appointment. Of course it is impossible now. For me it is just a bus ride. Kermit
I will also post my comments about Sept 6. I will ask why Vancouver has no open spots.