If you have a non-U.S. travel document with a U.S. birthplace, you may face trouble entering U.S. territory unless you can demonstrate that you’re no longer a U.S. citizen. But the State Department might take more than a year from the time of your final visit to the consulate to give you a CLN. Worse yet, there’s always the possibility that they’ll find some legally dubious reason to “reject” your renunciation. So would-be former U.S. Persons could be stuck for a long period as “Schrödinger citizens” — neither citizens nor non-citizens, with no proof whatsoever of your status.
Which leads to the question: what if you need to go to the U.S. while you’re stuck in this limbo? Eido Inoue, who comments here on occasion, just wrote a post about this very topic:
For Americans, there is a time when you apply for relinquishment of your U.S. citizenship and you send your U.S. passport to the State Department for processing. However, as you as still technically a U.S. citizen until the U.S. State Department has issued you a CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality), you are issued a letter from the embassy explaining that you are in the process and your U.S. passport is in possession of the State Department. This letter is solely for travel to the United States, and America requires those who are U.S. nationals to use their U.S. passport when travelling to/from the United States, regardless of what other passports or nationalities you may possess.
Of course, in order to return to your home country once your visit to the U.S. is over, you’ll need some other sort of travel document. Japan at least allows former U.S. citizens to naturalise first (and thus become eligible to obtain a Japanese passport), and then declare their Japanese naturalisation as a relinquishing act to the U.S. government. Other countries, however, forbid dual citizenship so strictly that they require you to show a CLN before you are naturalised. For people from most countries, this isn’t a problem because renunciation of their former citizenship is a quick and easy process — the Indian consulate-general in Hong Kong, for example, is reported to process renunciations in under an hour!
Indians may lament that they have the world’s worst bureaucracy, but they make the State Department look positively speedy. If you’re an American, you could end up spending an hour just standing in line for your renunciation appointment, and you might have to go for more than a year not having any passport at all. In the interim, we’re stuck with stateless persons’ travel documents (like Hong Kong’s Document of Identity for Visa Purposes), which make it very hard to get transit visas for any countries we might pass through en route to the U.S. and on the way back. And forget taking any cross-border weekend trips.
My questions: have you ever been in this situation? Does anyone know how long you’re allowed to spend in the U.S. on one of these travel letters? Is there a possibility that it would affect the approval of your renunciation?
I renounced in March but have had absolutely no trouble visiting the US since. If fact, each crossing from Canada has been a pleasant and easy experience. The potential for rejection is certainly there but that has not been my experience at all.
@Bruce,
Every report like yours is good to hear. You haven’t received your CLN yet, have you? If not, hope it is soon!
Eric,
I don’t believe anyone else has reported being able to get such a letter. In fact, just the opposite.
Canadians who renounce or relinquish have to pay the $450 fee up front, as I believe anywhere in the world to renounce. I presume all, as I did, receive a small “sales” receipt, with name and Renunciation of Citizenship noted. I understand from someone commenting here that information would also be available at the border crossing. I have that little receipt with my Canadian (one and only) passport in case of an emergency that I have to cross into the US.
Those relinquishing would never have had a US passport so, hopefully, could cross with the one they do hold, hoping if they are questioned that information would be accessible at the border. They would not have had to pay the fee to receive the tiny little receipt the renouncers have.
Looks like the situation will vary from country to country. A request for such a letter seems prudent.
I recall Lord Jim’s daughter saying that London provided a letter, and I think someone elsewhere did as well. I remember thinking it was a great idea to do that.
Particularly in the case of a relinquishment s.349(1) as you don’t get a receipt for $450 as that fee only applies to relinquishments under s. 349(5), such letter would be nice to have. For a relinquisher, the interim period waiting for your CLN after attending at the consulate is a bit odd, having officially signed out of the the system but not having any proof of having done so.
One of the consulates in Canada was giving people a photocopy of the documents they signed at their expatriation meeting, but stopped doing it last winter. I think DoS told them they’re not supposed to do that.
As Calgary points out, many people applying for a CLN based on a previous relinquishment never had a US passport at all (and of those who did, I’d guess most disposed of their expired one years ago). No one so far has reported to us any problems about entering the US during the interim period by land or plane. Schubert has reported that his wife was told by the vice consul that CLN application files are accessible on the database used by DHS, and in fact she did fly into the US with no problem during her interim period.
One thing, though, I read in a British newspaper of a problem arising in 2009 with an airline not allowing US-born persons to board planes for the US unless they have a US passport or a CLN, so it might be different with intercontinental travel to the US.
I can’t see how visiting theUS US
My wife is in this pickle — had her 2nd appointment in August for a 1974 relinquishment, got nothing from the consulate when she walked out the door, and still does not have the CLN.
We gambled and went south three weeks ago and encountered nothing at the border (in YVR). The guy asked the usual where ya goin, how long etc. — but said nothing about that US birhplace.
I sometimes wonder if the Homeland folks tell Customs and border to lay off some things because there’s a potential for bad publicity. Also, at the airport there is a limit to what they can do — deny entry is about it; if they want to arrest you they have to get the mounties to do it and then go through extradition — and I doubt they’d do that for anything other than a suspected drug dealer or some other type of crook
I think the real terror is still a year or more away — that will come when the IRS and homeland security have successfully merged their data bases and they can see whether or not you’ve been fingered on a tax compliance issue. At that point, the CLN probably won’t help you much. We can all hope that some sanity might enter into this, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for it.
*
The poster says;
For Americans, there is a time when you apply for relinquishment of your U.S. citizenship and you send your U.S. passport to the State Department for processing. However, you are still technically a U.S. citizen until the U.S. State Department has issued you a CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality),
I will have to disagree with this and say, when you relinquish with the Consulate, from that day forward you are no longer a US citizen. The CLN is just the confirmation letter, but to my understanding during this period you are not “still” a US citizen…
.If this were the case, then you would not be required to get another citizenship before renouncing.
I agree, mach73. The date of a CLN should reflect either the date of your renunciation appointment or the date of your relinquishment that you are officially confirming, even if it occurred decades ago (so in that case, not the date of your Consulate appointment). For a relinquishment, you have not been a citizen since sometime in the 1960’s, 70’s, 80’s, etc. For those resident in a country right now, becoming a citizen of the country in which you reside is your relinquishing act and you would no longer be a citizen as of the date of that citizenship — unless, of course, you do something entirely stupid like I did, negating the relinquishment I could have claimed for the date I became a Canadian citizen in March of 1975. It is so gratifying to see that the US is indeed recognizing those acts of long ago (for others, not for me). I give the Department of State full marks for that!
Calgary411
Yes…i dropped off my paperwork for relinquishment the same day I received my Canadian Citizenship. I actually went to the Consulate direct from the ceremony (after copying the certificate) as I had all the forms already filled out (without signing of course).
Haven`t heard from the Consualte as of yet, but they said they would process the paperwork and call me for an appointment….they were very nice actually…and quite surprised I was so much in a rush to relinquish!
I am so close to getting out that I am feeling paranoid that something bad is going to happen….it has been a long road, and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel….just hope it isn`t a train coming the other way.
What surprises me is that they send you all the information explaining item (5) of section 349(a)…but never mention items 1 and 2…of which i want to excercise as, to my point, getting Canadian citizenship is a direct act of expatriation with no questions asked.
A bit off topic, Mach73, but you’ve outdone me. The first thing I did directly after receiving my Canadian citizenship was walk across the street and buy a slice of pizza.
Seriously, I can understand it’s simply a matter of how a person feels. Like you just wanted to basically “transfer” your citizenship, your sense of belonging and commitment — that’s how I felt about it anyway — as opposed to having both at the same time. And the way things are today, I can understand you want to get those papers moving as quickly as possible.
Hi, mach73.
You advised the US Consulate in Halifax of your relinquishment by obtaining your Canadian citizenship, correct?
I don’t have you on the database at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/, but would like to include your information.
How long have your been waiting? It appears that you have as clear-cut a relinquishment as others here who are now receiving CLNs as an act of expatriation when becoming a Canadian citizen. One by one they are being reported as received here at Isaac Brock, some taking longer than others.
We understand your paranoia. Hang in there a while longer and stay tuned here. Thanks for being part of the discussion here!!
*@mach73, If you don’t mind me asking how long did it take for you to get your Canadian Citizenship? I am pretty sure I sent my application in about 6 weeks after you, we talked about it over at Expat Forum.
Thanks!
@Calgary411,
I have been in contact with the Halifax Consulate on and off for quite some time…basically asking questions and information on how to properly fill out some of the forms. Following my citizenship ceremony, I had the option of mailing, faxing, or dropping off the completed paperwork in person, therefore, I only handed the paperwork in for them to process…so it does not count as an actual ‘appointment’ to inform them of relinquishment.
That is why i am not yet in the database……but when I finish the process I promise I will tabulate my account.
@Saddened123
I do recall us talking about the Citizenship process. Mine took exactly 13 months from the date of application. At the ceremony there have been people waiting anywhere from 12 months to 21 months….there is no explanation why the gaps in time.
@mach73.
Thanks for the explanation. I thought I had dropped the ball.
Good luck — you’re just as much a relinquisher as the ones who’ve already received their CLNs successfully. If someone thinks not, it will be time for us to be askng some more questions.
…and the Halifax experience seems to be one of the better ones in Canada from reports here, so hope you find that’s the case.
*@mach73, So happy you got your Citizenship, and the relinquishment is in the works. Good For you!! It has now been 1 year since I sent in my application. I am hoping to hear something soon!! Good Luck Mach73!!
@Saddened123
Also, not sure if you check the CIC website on your citizenship update…but I found that it only updated once through the whole process from ‘received’ to ‘in process’. In fact, I received the the letter to attend the ‘exam’ before the my status was updated on the website.
Also…if it has been a year for you, and they have not asked for any additional information such as finger prints, you are well on your way as this request would have been made early on in the process and it seems to slow things down some. Hopefully You will get something in the mail very soon.
Good luck.
*@mach73, I do check the website several times a week, it shows that it is processing. It shows it has been processing since August. I am hoping it will be soon. We have a different mailman every week and are always getting someone else’s mail, I am just hoping my notice for Citizenship does not get lost.
Thanks Mach73!!
I would not visit the U.S. if you are a covered expat under the expatriation tax (877A) until you received your CLN, you don’t want to give them any reason to deny your renunciation.
I asked for a copy of the oath when I left the Consulate and was told they no longer did that. They also were not collecting the fee in advance at that point, so I had nothing to show that I had renounced. This was Toronto, just short of a year ago.
I have my CLN but also have an EDL. Am going to Chicago for the weekend. Am thinking of trying to use the EDL as it should only read “CDN.” Will let you know what happens!
I was in limbo without a passport after I renounced because Denmark does not allow dual citizenship. However, for this very reason it took “only” a month for my CLN to arrive. The embassy personnel were well aware of my dilemma. I think the State Department probably expediates processing for those who end up passportless, as the existence of a “stateless” person is problematic both for the US and the new country.
And then it took another six weeks for Denmark to issue me a passport once I gave them a copy of my CLN, if I remember correctly. Stressful times. :-O
In the UK, the Embassy provides a letter explaining that the renunciant does not have a US passport because he or she has renounced and is awaiting the CLN. It is possible to present that letter when travelling to the US (as a British citizen) on the visa waiver program before the CLN has been received.
There has been a sudden speeding up of the issuance of CLNs by the State Department through the London Embassy after long delays.
*I specifically asked the American Consul at the Toronto Consulate if I would have any problems crossing the border while I was waiting for my CLN. She said to just tell them that I was in the process of obtaining my CLN. I crossed the border twice to make week-long visits my aging parents in the 11 month interval that I waited for my CLN. Both times I just handed them my Canadian passport without saying anything about my relinquishment. When they asked me my citizenship, I stated that I was Canadian. No further discussion ensued.
No one has to date been turned away while using a Canadian Passport to enter the USA. No one.
usxcanada recently entered the US by air, first time post renunciation, first time ever on a Canadian passport. The only question asked, no delay, was this: Your passport says you were born in xxx (undistinguished place name) USA — what state is that? Lesson for now — they are looking at that data and letting you know that they are looking. Post renunciation, pre CLN.
*has anybody used a central american consulate,if so what was your experience?