A summary and a thank you…
A summary of what appears to be a breaking of the log jam we’ve seen for at least one of the US Consulates in Canada — Vancouver.
A thank you to one who took the time to listen — the Consul General of Canada, Sylvia D. Johnson.
Conversations took place. We’re seeing change. Communication works.
pacifica777 and calgary411 have had several discussions with Ms. Johnson — through email and a couple of lengthy phone calls, taking time from what we can only imagine to be her very busy schedule.
From calgary411:
Earlier this month, Ms. Johnson asked in an email for my phone number and if I were available to talk with her. She listened to my personal concerns and then to what I said regarding reports of discrepancies of experiences at US Consulates in Canada for those who had made personal decisions for renunciation or relinquishment of US citizenship. Ms. Johnson assured me they knew of this issue and were taking steps to remedy the problems. Direction had gone to all Canadian Consulates to follow the same procedures, requiring one appointment for US renunciation or relinquishment vs two appointments. She asked me to give it until December to see if we were seeing a difference; if not, please contact her again. (During our phone call, I informed her of my November 14th renunciation, so had reservations whether or not I had compromised my own renunciation. As I’ve earlier commented, the appointments for myself and my husband at the Calgary US Consulate were straight-forward, efficient and non-judgemental.)
Today Isaac Brock received word from Cir regarding his communications with Ms. Johnson that resulted with her assistance to him in getting his required second appointment date (he’s one caught in between the old process and the new for Vancouver). Yesterday we had comments from Angela Kirk and DavidM re his wife — their final steps, having received the first, reported to us, CLNs resulting from their Vancouver appointments. Hopefully, the excessive amount of detail required for important supporting documentation in Vancouver will loosen as well.
A big difference! What were seemingly one after another bogged-down experiences for Vancouver relinquishers and renunciants now may have turned a corner. Numbers of those applying there are high and it seems the Vancouver Consulate seems swamped. We hope to soon see a continuing more efficient process there.
I want the renunciation appointment experiences that my husband, my daughter and I had at the Calgary US Consulate to be the same for all in Canada who decide the only way to get on with their lives is to take steps to either renounce US citizenship or to declare acts of relinquishment. To have their decisions respected and the process they go through respectful will be a win-win situation.
From Pacifica:
As editor of the Consulate Report Directory, I’ve been aware from procedural/scheduling/etc changes at various consulates in Canada, that they’ve been adapting, and positively so, to this unprecedented tidal wave of expatriations. And, despite their increased workload, I’ve sensed a serious commitment to providing good, even excellent, customer service almost everywhere. But, still, I was floored when Calgary411 told me she’d just gotten a phone call from the Consul General for all of Canada!
I have also spoken with Ms. Johnson. Ms. Johnson asked Calgary411 to put me in touch with her so that I could provide her with information about problems that have been experienced. And I too thank her for taking the time to listen.
While I was happy to be able to tell her that most of our consulate reports are excellent, she was interested in what we felt wasn’t going well. It was a very comfortable conversation. She pointed out changes that have recently been made, and are being made, to improve several things that have concerned us, and took a great interest in hearing of a couple of other matters we’ve encountered, with a view to addressing them as well.
From compiling the directory, it was obvious to me that various consuls have been implementing changes to deal more effectively with this overload of CLN applications. But it was absolutely terrific to realise that someone, the Consul General for Canada, no less, was very interested in our experiences and feedback!
I have been concerned about problems renunciants and relinquishers have had at certain consulates. After speaking with Ms. Johnson, I think we’re heading towards having expatriation go efficiently, smoothly, and respectfully for every CLN applicant at every consulate across Canada.
I agree with Calgary. That’s a win-win situation, for the person expatriating and for the US!
Since they welcome future conversations, once you guys have your CLNs in hand, maybe you should request an apointment with her and tell her what you think about how wrong it is to threaten expats to the point that they feel they have to give up their US citizenship. Things you might not have been able to tell her prior to your apointment.
@bubblebustin, calgary411- there is no humane way of committing murder. Informing people of their oppression does not change the injustice. Looking for full disclosure from the U.S. government won’t make one difference as to my inability to live outside of U.S.. territory. Nor does it do anything to change to lie that is at the foundation of citizenship based taxation, which is that it is wrong.
To legitimize citizenship based taxation on the grounds that there is no “law against” it is to use an argument from silence as a base to form a proscriptive law. Unfortunately arguments from silence give you absolutely no logical grounds upon which to form a conclusion on the issue being debated.
It is because of this weakness of the argument from silence that the lack of any testimony from an accused person cannot be taken as evidence of guilt. The jury’s deliberations can only take under consideration the evidence and testimony that was given.
If one is to decide the legitimacy of citizenship based taxation then it has to be done on the basis of evidence given. When looked at under that light then citizenship based taxation has no evidence in its favor. The U.S. knows this and that it why it refuses to debate this issue and instead just says that, “it is the law”. All oppressors resort to this last line of defense and couple it with force.
How else could you make people or nations cooperate with legislation that absurd and not in their own best interest?
FATCA puts the U.S. in charge of other nation’s treasuries, legislatures, and constitutions.
@Christophe,
Believe me, I did convey that to the Consul General. I didn’t hold anything back about my situation (so much that I wondered if I had compromised my own case), how it was affecting me and so many others. I felt Ms. Johnson’s conversation with me was sincere, that she was really listening and that she really wants to help make the process we are talking about here work better. She is but one person who can help in this whole mess. It proved to me that finally having someone stand up to the plate, to comunicate instead of ignore, does improve progress. I give her full points for what she is trying to do.
@recalcitrantexpat
I agree, it is citizenship based taxation that is the problem. However, the first step in solving a problem is knowing you have one. If every person who contemplated moving abroad knew what they were faced with, I think that the US would have switched to a residency based taxation system long ago. If US consulates stopped providing services to US citizens unless they paid their tax, as Eritrea does, imaging the big increase in awareness that would cause! Citizenship based taxation is America’s dirty little secret with big consequences, and they want to keep it that way it seems.
@Christophe- Ambassadors and Consul Generals are not hired to be advocates for expats on issues of government policy, that is the job of their Congressmen/women. They are kind diplomatic respresentatives who promote U.S. government policy. Their one duty is to make the U.S. look good. Acknowledging that there may be some U.S. citizens who are unhappy with their government’s policies and advocting for change is NOT in their job description.
I am sure that Ambassador Jacobson got his hands wrapped for his comments in 2011 about the U.S. “not being unreasonable”. I can only surmise this because ever since he has been notably silent on the tax issue.
Diplomats are loyal, civilian foot soldiers. The fact that Ms. Johnson was willing to talk with the “enemy” and listen to their grievances with regards to embassy procedure is in itself quite a step forward. At least it got some procedural changes to be enacted. Attempting to recruit her as an advocate for a change in U.S. tax policy goes way out of her job description.
You’re right, recalcitrant. There will be no fairness, no justice, unless the US quits its bull-headedness and recognizes their responsibility to be a partner with all other countries. Change citizenship-based taxation to what the rest of the world, except Eritrea, has — residence-based taxation.
They likely won’t — nobody tells them what to do. We certainly see it in how they will wangle out of any real reciprocity with other countries in their negotiations with FATCA. From October 12, 2012 Department of the Treasury, Mark J. Mazur, Assistant Secretary (Taxc Policy) http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/12SE001798-SIGNED-Paul.pdf
All countries entering into IGAs should make sure that the reciprocal agreements the US offers to enter with other countries includes the statement that the US will create additional laws or regulations there so there is NOT different scope for the US IRS and US financial insitutions than for that which the foreign governments will agree to provide to the United States.
That one nation after another is tripping over themselves to relieve their own country of their own sovereignty is dispicable.
The US reminds me of a wilful, obstinate teenager, butting heads with a parent on some important issue. They want to be the boss of the world, not a partner. Too bad the US can’t grow up and have a real discussion with the rest of the world.
Good terminology, bubblebustin — little (or big) dictator.
@calgary
I often refer to these kinds on children as little “dictators”.
I was just continuing the “cynicism” and the situation in to absurdity, it is not in our interests to close our border to former citizens. I’ve already made clear my disagreement with the unfair situation Americans abroad have to deal with, no access to free, easy, filing options, and extra complications by our ludicrous system of loop holes and exemptions. I’m in favor or a simple, straightforward, tax system. I’d even go as far to say that I’d be in favor of eliminating the requirements for Americans filing while living completely abroad.
@Tim NAFTA does not confer on Canadians the “right” to enter the US, Canadians wishing to enter the US although the system is intended to be streamlined it is still a foreign national entering a foreign country, if we had some sort of NAFTA Schengen it would be different but NAFTA has no provisions like that. There are special, and expedited visas and processing for NAFTA member citizens to work and live reciprocally between the three of our countries. But, you are at the mercy of the CBP officer as to whether they wish to allow you entry or not as a foreigner. The same way I do not have the right to enter Canada, as a US citizen, I’m at the mercy of the border official as to whether I’m permitted entry or not.
It’s interesting that you wish me to be stranded on the side of the road, real nice.
*@WhoaltSteve
I would say it is not necessarily open and shut as what NAFTA requires. Canadian citizens do no have a full right of abode(as between the EU countries or Australia NZ) in the US and vice versa. However, at least as to how I interpret NAFTA I believe that NAFTA visas can only be denied on the basis of “public safety.” Thus someone with a criminal record could be kept from crossing the border but I find it hard to see how renouncing ones citizenship could somehow be interpreted in either the US or Canada as a criminal offense. Border Guards in both countries do have a lot of discretion to keep people out however, at the end of the day keeping a US citizen out of Canada or a Canadian citizen out of the the US permanently must be done on a legal basis. Border Guards do have a lot of “tricks” to keep people out at their discretion. One of I heard Canadian border guards have used to keep out Americans is to require them to get a police report or criminal background check on themselves before entering Canada. However, if the come back “clean” it is hard for me to see under Canadian law how a border guard could simply keep a US citizen out of Canada.
*Certain government officials such as the Secretary of Homeland Security in the US and Minister of Immigration in Canada have certain powers that they and their direct designees can use on a catch-all basis to keep people out but these decisions are made in Ottawa and Washington not at some border crossing(and are subject to court challenge when not made with a legal basis under Canadian or US immigration law respectively). The “Reid Amendment” was not really drafted to take into account US citizens who renounced to become Canadian citizens and for that matter it has not even been brought into force despite some stories of border guards trying to enforce it on their own.
@ Bubblebustin
I get a kick out the visual of that. Then I got thinking they might need them here soon. I think the numbers are really going to be big here. Along with dual citizens renouncing, there’s the 117,000 US-born Canadian citizens who believe they’re “Canadian citizen only” according to the 2006 census. But no one seems to have heard of a CLN before 2011.
This large number of relinquishers might be a phenomenon fairly particular toCanada for sociological reasons. With the cultural similarities, Canada very easily became home to US-born persons, and with the general stability here, US-borns tended not to feel a need to hang on to their former citizenship just-in-case.
Also for sociological reasons, I don’t think the relinquisher wave has hit the consulates yet. US immigrants toCanada don’t cluster together, as many immigrant groups, including Americans in some countries, do. They don’t live in “Americatowns,” they don’t have social clubs, etc. So, it’s not like they’re hearing about this “retroactive- citizenship” en masse through the grapevine.
I found out because I happened to see one of those FBAR stories in the newspaper last summer, but that didn’t get all that much coverage. Now FATCA is starting to become news and I suspect that will get coverage, and they’ll find out then.
While duals have a choice to make, renounce or not, relinquishers don’t really have a choice at all. In getting a CLN, a relinquisher is not changing their life, they’re preserving it. They need a CLN to continue living life as they know it and continue being who they are.
So, I think a very, very high percentage of these apprx 117,000 relinquishers will be applying for CLNs, and I don’t think most of them have even heard about this stuff yet.
@Pacifica
“In getting a CLN, a relinquisher is not changing their life, they’re preserving it. They need a CLN to continue living life as they know it and continue being who they are.“
So well said. For the past year, I have felt that someone took something away from me. It has been not unlike how I felt the first few years after my husband suddenly died. In that case I had been Mrs. xxxxx, wife of Mr. xxxxx and now I was no longer that person. At least that was the way I felt. This past year, there have been so many moments when I asked myself – ‘who am I’; I thought I was this American-born Canadian who had lived all of my adult life in Canada, voted in Canada, paid taxes in Canada, cheered for Canada in the 2010 Olympic hockey game, never even thought of cheering for the U.S. in that game. Now someone was telling me ‘no, you are not that person.’
In so many respects, this past year I have been grieving the person I was and want to be again. Hopefully, that day will come soon.
@tiger,
That day is coming!
@calgary411 and pacifica777
I have to say that although it’s great that SOMEONE in the US government is willing to listen to and actually act on our grievances, it deeply perturbs me that it’s only by those who provide the service of seeing us to the door.
ACA has been hammering on our issues for years now, to very little avail. This, combined- with the IRS’s all-out attack on its own citizens abroad has directly led to US citizens renouncing their citizenships, yet all the US government has the wisdom to do is to make it easier for us to renounce. Why? Because living among the natives opens your eyes. America’s sacred cow of stupidity, citizenship based taxation, has no place in a free society. It has only survived scrutiny because the only ones to really scrutinize it are living among the natives. Soon, there will be no Americans living among the natives, and no Americans leaving America to live among them when they learn they are shackled to America. If they do, it will be on ‘tours’ and will be advised to not ‘mingle’ with the natives and their strange laws.
@bubblebustin,
We don’t know why we are not heard through all of ACA’s efforts, those launched from this site (and others) and our own individual efforts. It makes me weary, all this human energy wasted when we could be doing much more positive work in the communities of the countries where we live.
You may have given a glimpse of what the future looks like for anyone wanting to leave the “homeland” for whatever reason, as rights of Americans (anywhere they reside) continue to erode. A sad time in American history, I’d say.
@calgary
Thank you. In that our energy is not ‘contrived’ I believe that it must surely cause change. It is not contrived, because the persecution we face is very real. We thus work diligently to effect change, whether it’s for improving conditions for renouncing, or to influence others so that we may increase our momentum.
This ordeal has changed me. I had never felt persecution in any real form until last August, and although it’s not as bad as what many human beings have had to endure over the course of history, it is still persecution and inflicted by the US on its very own. What can be worse for a country than to have its citizens renounce en masse? Maybe its citizens killing themselves, which may not be beyond the realm of possibilities when its citizens have no way out, especially if the counties they live in throw them under the bus. I will find my way out, but not without a large emotional and monetary expenditure beforehand. Others may not be as lucky as I am.
@bubblebustin,
I sincerely hope all of our energy in contributing to this site will prove to help others having their OMG moment long after we have had ours. As I mentioned yesterday, I am certainly not the same ME and will never again be. This whole energy-sucking process has been life-changing.
I feel I’m a fairly strong person and I will get to the end of my long road and go on with some normalcy. Unfortunately, I am not given a right to free my son from his US citizenship and I will never forgive that injustice. Unfortunately, others do not have the voice we have put forth here. I am determined to help them in some way if I can.
*I can indeed relate to how this has all been life-changing. It’s the hypocrisy and blind ignorance of the masses over there that digs at me. While I realize my parents would be (perhaps surprisingly understanding), I still painfully realize that I would inevitably create enemies if I renounced. I know that there are people who retain a blind patriotism (nationalism) who despair at my even considering giving up U.S. citizenship even though I’ve explained all the problems and costs. They just can’t see me as being more than self-serving. It would have to be my dark secret that I wouldn’t be able to tell many of our family friends, old mates from school days, or even some of my relatives.
@monalisa 1776
What’s really kind of phenomenal about those types of patriots (for lack of a better word), is that they’d prefer to support their governments policies rather than their freedom to choose to live in a country other than the US without punishment. It strikes at the very heart of what it means to be free!
@ Bubblebustin, 11.37 am
Since I learned about this stuff last year, I get the feeling if ACA hasn’t been able to get them to do anything about it in all these years, I don’t think there’ll be change, at least not any time soon.
At any rate, they decided to get greedy, and politically opportunistic, and pushed it so hard, they’re pushing people right out the door.
I know one of the Brockers, who became a USC voluntarily in the 1950s, was very hurt when he wrote his congressman about the difficulties he’s facing trying to conform to the tax complexities and worried about penalties, and the congressman replied suggesting he renounce.
@monalisa,
To each of us his own. We have to decide.
Do I want to PLEASE persons who would call me the enemy by not understanding my decisions?
I won’t waste one moment trying to change the mind of closed-minded persons who won’t look past their blind patriotism. Nor will this EVER be some horrible secret that I can’t tell. Believe me, I will tell.
We’ll have to determine who are our real friends. Someone who does not RESPECT the decisions I have to make in my life is NOT my friend, never has been, never will be. I will give others the same right to make their own decisions based on what is best for their lives, their morality. Their values do not have to be mine — there are many to call friend who have similar values to those I hold.
Life is too short for me to waste my time trying to please anyone! I am now 69 years old; my husband 72. I want my remaining time in this world to be used on endeavours that my own values reflect. (The older I get, the more I feel this way — I admit that.)
If the US is going to force me to renounce, they dam* well better make it easier for me to do so! Poor Eritreans, they can’t even renounce. Imagine if you were both an Eritrean, USP and lived outside both countries? I’d blow my head off!
I totally appreciate your efforts Calgary411 – your tenacity, and accomplishment in getting to the Consul. And willingness to come forward with your story. It will help all those lining up and getting into position to renounce/relinquish. Don’t think the criticisms I make of the US and Consul are unappreciative of your going out on a limb, and your work on behalf of all lined up behind you to be free.
@bubblebustin:
re, ….”I have to say that although it’s great that SOMEONE in the US government is willing to listen to and actually act on our grievances, it deeply perturbs me that it’s only by those who provide the service of seeing us to the door.”…..
But, @bubblebustin, and @recalcitrant, and @Em, I agree – the consul’s purposes and goals and ours are not the same even if there is a small area of overlap.
I see it as very politically expedient for the consul and US Ambassador to assist right now because of the possibility of attracting any unwanted negative public attention – as a result of the US thwarting citizens trying to exercise our US and human right to renounce, or delaying us any more than the pitfall strewn IRS 5 year compliance barrier already does (!!!). Especially at a time when any attention to FATCA or any related issue is entirely unwelcome. Look at the paucity of attention or discussion on the effects of US extraterritorial taxation, and FATCA on ordinary individuals. All the focus is on the institutions. Any attention we can bring to what this really means for the lives of seniors, children, (puppies) and families in Canada and elsewhere, helps to cast a guilty stain on the US, their true intentions, and their methods.
If the Consul and Embassy job is to make the US look good to the host country, then having ‘puppies’ pushed in desperation, to tell their story publicly is not going to help the US cause. And, it is going to taint our Canadian federal government for enabling the US – in complete and utter contradiction to Minister Flaherty’s earlier public stance.
If talking to the consul helps others be free faster, then that is good, but may not mean that the Consul’s interests and ours overlap by much. Let’s face it, it’s kind of late for them to decide that the process needed tweaking. They know perfectly well how things stand by now – and they didn’t act on their own initiative to expedite things – no matter what they are appearing to do now. In fact it may be that they’ve decided that it is better to have ‘happier’ renouncers go faster off into the sunset and off their hands rather than deal with ever more disgruntled ones who might decide that it is worth coming forward and embarass them. Eventually it might have gotten some news coverage? Look what it took for Calgary411 to finally get any answer. And the Ambassador Jacobson did not answer anyone’s e-mail or other correspondence that we know of, even by form letter.
After spending all the money, time, emotional and physical losses that we have experienced here, I am not willing to extend any thanks, and have no goodwill left to offer any crumbs that the US might drop our way.
Read more: What is the American Consulate General? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6372189_american-consulate-general_.html#ixzz2DGaf4H2E http://www.ehow.com/about_6372189_american-consulate-general_.html#ixzz2DGaf4H2E
*@Badger, I am convinced that the media are being gagged somehow. I don’t know if they’re being quietly bribed or even vaguely feeling threatened in some form.
@Bubble and @Calgary, I agree that I will have to ultimately decide what’s best for me even if it upsets others. I am not gay but can imagine that closet homosexuals must have to struggle with similar sorts of angst concerning their sexuality.
I am naturally nervous and cautious and admittedly fear that at some point, that there could be reprisals if awareness of the huge rise in renunciations becomes too public, especially if the numbers really surge. I could see substantial increases in nasty audits on FBARs and filed tax returns with still open statutes of limitations; obstruction by stealth by the U.S. Consulates; and, most obviously, Congress passing further laws similar to the proposed Ex-Patriot Act to serve as disincentives such as reduced thresholds for the Exit Tax or hugely increased fees to renounce.
But on a more positive note, I desperately hope and PRAY that things will finally tip in our favour…that we will finally be listened to, with real reform so that US Persons abroad will decide it’s worth keeping their citizenship/green cards, after all.
I realize that I repeat myself but it all gnaws at me as to what to do. I am so TORN. :'(
disheartening