A summary and a thank you…
A summary of what appears to be a breaking of the log jam we’ve seen for at least one of the US Consulates in Canada — Vancouver.
A thank you to one who took the time to listen — the Consul General of Canada, Sylvia D. Johnson.
Conversations took place. We’re seeing change. Communication works.
pacifica777 and calgary411 have had several discussions with Ms. Johnson — through email and a couple of lengthy phone calls, taking time from what we can only imagine to be her very busy schedule.
From calgary411:
Earlier this month, Ms. Johnson asked in an email for my phone number and if I were available to talk with her. She listened to my personal concerns and then to what I said regarding reports of discrepancies of experiences at US Consulates in Canada for those who had made personal decisions for renunciation or relinquishment of US citizenship. Ms. Johnson assured me they knew of this issue and were taking steps to remedy the problems. Direction had gone to all Canadian Consulates to follow the same procedures, requiring one appointment for US renunciation or relinquishment vs two appointments. She asked me to give it until December to see if we were seeing a difference; if not, please contact her again. (During our phone call, I informed her of my November 14th renunciation, so had reservations whether or not I had compromised my own renunciation. As I’ve earlier commented, the appointments for myself and my husband at the Calgary US Consulate were straight-forward, efficient and non-judgemental.)
Today Isaac Brock received word from Cir regarding his communications with Ms. Johnson that resulted with her assistance to him in getting his required second appointment date (he’s one caught in between the old process and the new for Vancouver). Yesterday we had comments from Angela Kirk and DavidM re his wife — their final steps, having received the first, reported to us, CLNs resulting from their Vancouver appointments. Hopefully, the excessive amount of detail required for important supporting documentation in Vancouver will loosen as well.
A big difference! What were seemingly one after another bogged-down experiences for Vancouver relinquishers and renunciants now may have turned a corner. Numbers of those applying there are high and it seems the Vancouver Consulate seems swamped. We hope to soon see a continuing more efficient process there.
I want the renunciation appointment experiences that my husband, my daughter and I had at the Calgary US Consulate to be the same for all in Canada who decide the only way to get on with their lives is to take steps to either renounce US citizenship or to declare acts of relinquishment. To have their decisions respected and the process they go through respectful will be a win-win situation.
From Pacifica:
As editor of the Consulate Report Directory, I’ve been aware from procedural/scheduling/etc changes at various consulates in Canada, that they’ve been adapting, and positively so, to this unprecedented tidal wave of expatriations. And, despite their increased workload, I’ve sensed a serious commitment to providing good, even excellent, customer service almost everywhere. But, still, I was floored when Calgary411 told me she’d just gotten a phone call from the Consul General for all of Canada!
I have also spoken with Ms. Johnson. Ms. Johnson asked Calgary411 to put me in touch with her so that I could provide her with information about problems that have been experienced. And I too thank her for taking the time to listen.
While I was happy to be able to tell her that most of our consulate reports are excellent, she was interested in what we felt wasn’t going well. It was a very comfortable conversation. She pointed out changes that have recently been made, and are being made, to improve several things that have concerned us, and took a great interest in hearing of a couple of other matters we’ve encountered, with a view to addressing them as well.
From compiling the directory, it was obvious to me that various consuls have been implementing changes to deal more effectively with this overload of CLN applications. But it was absolutely terrific to realise that someone, the Consul General for Canada, no less, was very interested in our experiences and feedback!
I have been concerned about problems renunciants and relinquishers have had at certain consulates. After speaking with Ms. Johnson, I think we’re heading towards having expatriation go efficiently, smoothly, and respectfully for every CLN applicant at every consulate across Canada.
I agree with Calgary. That’s a win-win situation, for the person expatriating and for the US!
@Calgary411 & Pacifica777- thank you for your efforts in securing fair treatment for all U.S. persons. It is good to see that your efforts have borne fruit. I only wish that their more humane treatment of U.S. persons wasn’t being exercised for the purpose of letting people go.
How much more could the nation gain if it were to apply this change of heart to the fundamental issue of citizenship based taxation that is needlessly spawning the need?
And now if they can just double or triple the appointment slots available per month per location, and also issue the CLNs in a “timely” manner. And, provide us with stats for how many renunciations/relinquishments have been performed in Canada for the last 5 years till now – without requiring an FOI request.
The IRS and Treasury can continue to play their coy and disingenuous games re the renunciation numbers and their significance as long as we can’t contradict what they say.
@Calgary411 & Pacifica777, a special thanks because my nearest consulate is Vancouver. It’s a bitter-sweet victory but a victory nonetheless. Who says government doesn’t create jobs, Mr Romney?
Pacifica, how exactly is this a win for the US?
In Panama they offered a ..”town hall meeting on November 2nd, when any and all US
Citizens living in Panama were invited to the ambassador’s residence for
a question and answer session.” http://www.panamaequity.com/blog/life-in-panama/questions-and-answers-from-the-us-embassys-town-hall-meeting-in-november-2012/
Wonder if we could get the same courtesy extended here in Canada? I’d travel to Ottawa for that.
@ Bubblebustin,
I had written:
I believe it’s a win for the US because if people feel that obstacles are put up, even if not done on purpose (I know these consulates really are overloaded), it just gets them mad at the
Worse, if a consular official is opposed to expatration and verbally takes it out on a person, that makes theUS look terrible. It gives the impression the US is desperate to hang on to people and encourages anti-Americanism. [Personally I don’t care what a person thinks about the US, good or bad, but a consular official’s job is to show his country in its best light, not to advertise it as uglier than people realised or encourage people to loathe it.]
We’re all teed off, and logically so, with theUS lately due to this FATCA/FBAR/retroactive-citizenship stuff. But when I left the Toronto Consulate after my CLN meeting, I felt upbeat and positive about the US . The procedure was smooth; and despite everything we’re going through, those people made me feel good about the US. Maybe “feel better” is more accurate. I’m still teed off about the whole mess in the first place, and this new 21st century meanspiritedness directed at US-born persons abroad in legislation, policies and soundbites from inside the beltway exists, but my consulate visit did give me positive vibes, a sense that the country hasn’t morphed completely out of recognition. A consulate should be doing damage control, not making things worse.
Myst, an Ottawan who renounced this week in Montréal, reported,
“The parting words of the vice consul were – you are always welcome to come back and see us anytime.”
I commendVancouver , which has had serious procedural-scheduling problems, for addressing these issues and getting the wheels turning. And I think, in that one sentence, that vice consul in Montréal is doing a great job for the United States .
@Pacifica777
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate all you’ve done to play a part in the improvements the Vancouver consulate has done to get me quicker out of Dodge, but if the Nazi’s made a better oven, it’s still an oven. And “y’all come back now” said by one consulate staff member may not be wished us by all border agents. I’m sorry, I’m very cynical today because so many countries seem to be rolling over for FATCA and the Canadian government seems so perilously close to joining them…
@Bubblebustin,
I may be seeing it as a former US citizen, who always felt welcome in the US for 33 years. At the time I relinquished in 1979, it never crossed my mind it would be otherwise.
Things just feel different now. So, I thought that was a very nice thing for the Montréal vice consul to say. Myst terminated his/her contract with the US on good terms.
I’m contrasting it with a fortunately rare occurrence, but has occurred, of when “a consular official is opposed to expatration and verbally takes it out on a person.” That kind of behaviour creates bad feelings and bad image, and these people are supposed to the representing the US. So, it’s in the US’ interest, as well as ours, to clean up problems of that nature.
For the record, since the main post is focused on Vancouver, I’m not talking about Vancouver. Despite the very frustrating communication/scheduling/procedure problems, people consistently report on-site interaction with consulate staff there quite positively.
All the more reason to get the Canadian US Consulates (and all world-wide) up to speed, more efficient and ready to serve those who have made up their minds to renounce or claim relinquishment of US citizenship. If the US Treasury has a gun to our heads, at least let the US Consulates and the Department of State streamline their processes, ensuring the same procedure for all. As more US Persons Abroad come to realize what is happening, there will be more need to speed the process, increase the number of appointments, acknowledge our decisions and move us through to the end of US citizenship — as painlessly as possible. Getting to a common standard of procedure for all Consulates for renunciation and relinquishment is a good start. Hopefully, with good communication, we can work on other areas of concern. It is to our benefit and the US benefit to respect our decisions so we can move on. It is, indeed, a PR issue that the US Department of State, at least, respects our decisions in our right to renounce or relinquish. We, unfortunately, know that is not the end of it for most of us.
I, too, am livid that it appears the Canadian Government will roll over to the US without giving this issue a thorough airing and asking ALL Canadians their opinion. The cost is much more than the dollars and cents cost of retrofitting the banks to deal with this, much more than the transfer of those costs to ALL Canadians.
As renounceuscitizenship has indicated:
I’m sure I will be even more grateful for all of your hard work when it’s time for me to step into the queue.
@ Bubblebustin, I’m looking forward to that too. This is a bad mess for all of us, but I know you have one of the particularly bad ones.
Also, lest I sound too Pollyanna, after re-reading my first comment to you, I added a few lines to it (in italics below) after where I mentioned the great job TO did. I tend to be pretty upbeat and roll with the punches, but this US mess has had a very serious effect on me and my family. I know I won’t ever be able to feel the same about the US as I did prior to 2011 and I don’t even feel like visiting there for a while. But I think Toronto did a terrific job of damage control.
“The procedure [at Toronto] was smooth; and despite everything we’re going through, those people made me feel good about the US. Maybe “feel better” is more accurate. I’m still teed off about the whole mess in the first place, and this new 21st century meanspiritedness directed at US-born persons abroad in legislation, policies and soundbites from inside the beltway exists, but my consulate visit did give me positive vibes, a sense that the country hasn’t morphed completely out of recognition. A consulate should be doing damage control, not making things worse.“
I welcome the good results of good people doing good prodding but you know what could become very ironic about all this? In the future, after all the US consulates are finally up to speed and the number of renunciations are increasing dramatically, then the US government might start howling that the reason so many Americans are tossing away their citizenships is because they inadvertently made it much too easy for them to do it. Things could then swing the other way and the US government could instigate policies to discourage and delay renunciations. Although I hope this never happens, I am cynical enough to believe it could.
The most cynical thing would be to allow all of you malcontents to shed your American citizenship, realize it’s bad, close the border to you, and then end the filing requirements for Americans abroad, that would be good for a little laugh maybe?
Pacifica777,Calgary411 —
Fantastic. Your perseverance is admirable, and it’s nice to see they are going to change. It would be really good if Tiger could benefit from that.
On a related note, I got an official kiss-off from the Vancouver consulate PR on my request for stats — said they don’t compile them. I’ll pursue that some other way next week.
Whoait’sSteve — I doubt there’s much the US could do now that would convince all us relinquishers and renouncers that we’d made a mistake; please can we have it back. Once trust has been broken it is not easily repaired. And closing the border to us? An acceptable price for freedom in my opinion.
Funny — just a few days ago I was walking through Concord, Ma. and admiring all the history — walked over the famous bridge, read all the patriotic stuff on the signs, enjoyed the museums. As I recall, the big beef then was taxation without representation. My how things have turned around.
@whoait’ssteve- I have no regrets. The only thing that I regret is that I did not know sooner of the need to formally ditch U.S. citizenship and the process for doing so.
@Calgary and Pacifica
I have said it to both of you before but it is so worth repeating – Thank you, thank you, thank you. As you both know, my plan is to email the consulate in Vancouver early this next week and request my 2nd appt. Hopefully, the staff are back working after their Thanksgiving holiday. My first appt was more than two months ago and they have been told to do all relinquishments in one appointment. IMO those of us who are waiting for their 2nd appt should be prioritized before new applicants. My hope is they will respond immediately with an appointment time for me. I really want this behind me.
WhoaIt’sSteve, Exile is cruel and unusual punishment. Forcing a person to exile himself in order to protect his family is also cruel.
@Arrow,
Arrow, you hit the nail on the head for us relinquishers.
If I’d had any qualms or doubt, I never would have relinquished my citizenship in 1979. It’s that serious a decision. TheUS
I think that encapsulates how I feel. Trust. Yes, they tried to re-instate the contract we terminated amicably, according to their law, in 1979 — and it seems to have changed its mind for less than altruistic reasons as well. And everything surrounding this issue has caused trust to plummet.
I commented above, “I know I won’t ever again be able to feel the same about the US.”
The US used to feel like a good, familiar next door neighbour. It doesn’t now. This entire episode (not only the citizenship – everything associated with it, too, including attitude) has made me feel uneasy about theUS US than I do now, certainly better than I did at the depths of this mess. People recover from crises. But when it’s this big a thing, it’s like a really major car crash, versus a fender bender or even a normal car crash. You recover but not completely. I can’t see the uneasiness, wariness, going away. That’s like a 180 from how I felt prior to 2011.
@whoaitssteve
“The most cynical thing would be to allow all of you malcontents to shed your American citizenship, realize it’s bad…”
Please clarify what is “bad”: “allowing” us to renounce, or the US realizing that we’ve been treated badly?
Has it ever occurred to you that the US has done everything it could to alienate me as a citizen, including punishing me for living outside its borders? Has the US done anything to allay me of those feelings? NO! On the contrary, it’s only stepped up the threats!
@calgary pacifica
Add conveyer belts to the list of improvements US consulates should make 🙂
WhoaIt’sSteve,
Are you for real?
US, give us all a real amnesty. For those that want to retain their US citizenship, go forward with full knowledge of requirements for buy-in to the “best country in the world” club.
Full disclosure of the price for retaining US citizenship while living or working in a “foreign” country should be sent to each of those persons — a requirement of the Treasury Department. As well, make sure every immigrant that wants membership in the club signs a legal document that they are fully aware of the consequences, as well as the benefits, of US citizenship. No nasty surprises or entrapment. Updates from the IRS as US laws change should automatically be sent to all US citizen persons so they are absolutely kept up to date of their responsibilities.
In the meantime, the rest of us will concentrate our energies on the responsibilities we have in our own countries, the countries we are citizens of after having renounced or claimed relinquishment of our former US citizenship.
If you think any of us have gone into this decision on a lark, think again. I can’t think of one of us who would change our minds.
If you want the US to show us “malcontents” how even more punitive it can be, go ahead close the border to us. If we cannot live together in peace and TRUST as neighbours, then we can stay on each others’ side of the border, whatever that border may be.
*For one thing it is a violation of NAFTA to deny Canadian citizens entry into the United State other than for reasons of public safety. If the US wishes to violate NAFTA in this regard I have a very good retaliatory response. Canada should cut off the supply of Western Canadian oil to places like Chicago and Toledo, Ohio. Let the pumps run dry. (I have images of Who’Alt Steve broken down on the side of the road with no gas cursing himself why did I piss off the damn Canadians)
Whoastevie old boy:
I let the proverbial door hit me right in the arse and I have to admit, it felt pretty darn good.
If they see such an increase in renunciations and relinquishments that they have to change the procedures, why don’t they try to address the issue, instead of putting a bandaid?
Easing the renounciation procedures is not fixing the cause of the problem. The Consul Generate should report how wrong this is to the highest level in the US and try to make things change – not just to make it easy for people to renounce.
You’re absolutely right, Christophe. What are the odds?
In the meantime, what’s that word — obstrufication that we’ve had reported here — needs to cease in some US Consulates. That, it appears, is happening with the help of a wise woman, Sylvia D. Johnson. Everyone who has come to the conclusion that the only way to get on with their lives and things that really matter, is their well thought-out personal decision to renounce or rclaim relinquishment of US citizenship needs to have as nearly alike a process as the next person.
@christophe
Perhaps no one (including the consul general) thinks its wrong that so many of its citizens want to renounce!
@Calgary411
About your suggestion that the US should take more responsibility in letting their citizens know about their continued tax filing obligations when moving beyond US borders. The Eritrean government will refuse an Eritrean consular services if they do not pay their diaspora tax, and uses the threat of harm to relatives in Eritrea as their enforcement stick. The US discloses this to its citizens in mouse type in the passports of its citizens and is attempting to use FATCA and the threat of 30% withholding as their stick. For whatever reasons, the Eritrean government has been effective in letting their own citizens know of their tax filing obligations, unlike the US who relies on the element of surprise in order to apply FBAR penalties on their unsuspecting citizens. If there’s any difference is civility between the two nations, its marginal.