I am posting this on behalf of others who are now aware of this alert. It is for readers, especially in BC, Canada, who may want to take into account what we’ve been presented in their planning for either renunciation or relinquishment — so, especially for British Columbia readers, secondarily for those planning to go to other Consulates in Canada. We may all, worldwide, want to be cognizant, sort of a “Buyer Beware”.
A few of us have now discussed the information and I am presenting the words from our intermediary, Schubert:
READERS WHO LIVE IN BRITISH COLUMBIA, PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THIS.This piece of information is contributed through a person wishing to maintain one-remove anonymity (no direct posting to Brock). I have received this information third-hand, but from a source I consider very reliable. (So this is at least two-remove posting. I haven’t personally spoken with the individual reporting this conversation with a Vancouver consulate official or employee.In a telephone conversation with the Vancouver consulate in August 2012, a person at the consulate said that there is deliberate “batching” in the processing of renunciations. When the current batch is completed, priority will be given to other – presumably deferred – tasks for an unspecified period of time. (This perspective may help to explain the recent considerable lengthening of wait for first appointment in Vancouver.)My advice to anyone in BC is, if it’s at all feasible and you want to get a CLN, go to Calgary or maybe Toronto, not Vancouver. They aren’t doing this, as far as we know, and certainly the appointment timings and CLN release information, starkly contrasted with what is going on in Vancouver, supports that assumption.The information isn’t clear on whether this batching occurs with relinquishments as well as renunciations, but as Vancouver (unlike the rest of the planet except the Ottawa embassy) doesn’t seem to make any procedural distinctions in terms of processing the two very different forms of CLN, I suspect they probably also are batching relinquishments.So, I would assume that if you go to Vancouver consulate, your application for either type of CLN could sit in a black hole for a rather long time. Bear that in mind when planning your course of action. I believe if you’ve already made a first appointment or even have had that first meeting, you can still proceed with your process at another consulate, but I don’t know whether that might adversely affect processing in Washington. It shouldn’t, and I do know one person who got the application switched from the embassy to a consulate, but that person hasn’t received the CLN yet so we don’t know for certain that it has no adverse consequences.
Not sure what you mean by ‘batching’ but I am assuming you mean that they wait until they get a ‘crowd’ of people and then process them??
@mach73,
Or — getting a big pile of renunciation and/or relinquishment cases before sending the “batch” off to Washington, DC. It is reported that when that batch goes off, the Consulate personnel get back to work on duties that need attention, seemingly letting renunciation or relinquishment cases again accumulate before sending another “batch” to Washington, DC. With other experiences reported here for the Vancouver Consulate compared to, say, Toronto or Calgary, this could be a deliberate procedure (as compared to, but could be, short staff to handle all duties). That’s my interpretation.
It is apparent that there is not a set standard of procedure for either renunciations or relinquishments for ALL Consulates. Procedure and number of appointments required, etc. seems to be at the discretion of whoever is in charge at a particular Consulate.
Well…unless you are a big rush to visit the USofA…does it really matter? I mean…technically speaking when you show up at the consulate and renounce/reliquish…that is the day you cease being a Citizen…therefore the CLN is more a formality…unless of course you need it to travel south.
IMHO
*They are not keen on having their tax life stock stampede off the farm. They are also not keen on the publicity that mass defection may cause. Apparently the occasional news report that some expatriates here and there are renouncing is quite acceptable. After all US citizenship is so precious that people are lining up all over the world to come to the US and become Americans.
I see the possibility of a compromise here. May be we can strike a deal. Anybody who wants to give up his citizenship finds someone who wants to move to the US and become a citizen. The citizenship is then simply transferred to the immigrant. The net change to the tax life stock would be zero.
@Mach73, I don’t have any visits to US planned, but I feel that getting the CLN processed and delivered quickly is very important as citizenship impacts many areas of life.
I relinquished and ceased to be a US citizen in 1979 (when no one told us a word about CLNs). When I found out I now need a CLN (and that such a thing even existed) in order to make my life official by today’s US law, I acted as quickly as I could.
It’s not simply a question of moving forward with my life. I can’t redo 33 years of my life, even if I wanted to, so the sooner I get that now-required CLN, the sooner I’ll feel out of limbo and the sooner my life will be order.
Yikes! Is this not a perfect example of an insane bureaucracy. I have to assume that the U.S. government would staff their various consulates fairly. That is, consulates should be staffed at a specific ratio of staff to customers. So why can some consulates get things done more efficiently than others.
Having started the process in Vancouver, and most especially since at that first visit, I had the rotten experience of not having all of my documents accepted, I question whether I should change consulates at this time. Who knows where that might lead – I don’t trust any of them any longer.
Hopefully, the new document arrives this week and once emailed to the Vancouver consulate, I could at least get a 2nd appt. booked for not too distant a time. I WANT TO SCREAM!!!
@tiger,
Screaming is appropriate and OK in your situation. Then, take the rest of the weekend away from this and re-visit on Tuesday — after your Canadian Thanksgiving holiday, at which time you can give thanks you are in Canada. You WILL get through this. You’ve taken most of your steps to get to your goal. Thanks for hanging in there and reporting your ordeal for others to learn from — and they surely will.
@Tiger, I second Calgary. Try to get it off your mind this weekend, I know that’s hard, then see what happens after the weekend and take it from there. You have options. You’re getting close to your goal, and you’ve handled the adversity of your setback really well getting things moving so quickly with the documents from the State, which sounded like a labyrinth.
At the Halifax Consulate, you mail all of your documentation in without signing it, then they schedule an appointment with you.
@Mach andCalgary . My take on one possibility re this report of Vancouver batching is that this sudden increase in people renouncing US citizenship, along with decades worth of relinquishers in Canada suddenly needing CLNs, is cutting into the time their staff has for dealing with traditional matters. So the consulate feels they have to concentrate on stuff that may have been sidetracked because staff have been handling a record number of expatriations.
That’s just my thought on one possibility I thought of. And if that is the rationale, I certainly don’t approve of it. I believe CLNs are an extremely serious matter as theUS situation is causing chaos in normal people’s lives and deserves a high priority.
And one way of cutting their workload is to act as efficiently as possible, amongst other things they could require only one meeting for relinquishments as the other consulates do, because the relinquishment already occurred, in some cases before most people on this planet were even born.
TheUS put us in this mess through no fault of our own, without our knowledge or consent, in contradiction to the US law that existed when we last were US citizens, so they should do everything possible to straighten it out in good faith as quickly as possible. We sure are.
@Pacifica
I had a similar thought re the Vancouver consulate. I also, firmly, believe that the clerk who interviewed me was ‘brand new’ at her job. She could have worked at the consulate in a different capacity, but there is not a doubt in my mind, that I was her first ‘customer’. Perhaps, the consul in Vancouver has been given permission to train someone new to assist in the area of CLNs.
On the subject of why this may matter to some people:
To date, at Brock we have received 51 reports of people going to Canadian consulates seeking a CLN. Of those, 13 or about 1/4 went to Vancouver. To date, 20 of those 51 people, or roughly 40%, have actually received their CLN — and not one of them got it through Vancouver.
While one may argue that one can probably continue to cross the US border once having signed either the renunciation or the relinquishment oath, since the CLN is at that point officially in progress and one can’t possibly cross the border on a US passport, it is much less clear what leverage or protection the person would have if a banker or investment or mortgage broker confronted the person under the terms of FATCA, without having a CLN or at least having finishing the meeting/application process.
Vancouver is insisting on two meetings even for relinquishments (which no other embassy or consulate has done as far as I know, other than the embassy in Ottawa). The delays reported so far in Vancouver between the attempt to book even a first interview and actually getting the second interview have run as long as seven months (one person we know of in Ottawa was told they’d have to wait eleven months). Elsewhere, most relinquishment applicants have managed to get their (first and only) interview within a couple of weeks, and second renunciation appointments have been moving much faster than in Vancouver.
In addition to looming concerns about border crossings, not to mention FATCA implimentation which may (or may not, partially or wholly we aren’t yet sure) occur as early as this coming January, there is the very real and considerable anxiety and upset this process causes many people until they’ve finally at least got their oath signed and in the mill, never mind having received final closure through receipt of a CLN. That angst is probably being felt more strongly in Vancouver than elsewhere in Canada, as a result, and I say that without meaning to minimize in any way the angst people are feeling in Toronto and elsewhere.
Obviously everyone makes his or her own decisions in this process based on their own unique circumstances, tolerances and concerns. But I think it is very important information that at least one consulate (Vancouver, not to mention the embassy in Ottawa according to all the information at my disposal) is deliberately using a process that guarantees longer processing delays than what people are experiencing at other consulates.
If you are going to relinquish, then only one visit should be required as you have most definitley already made up your mind as opposed to a consideration of renouncing where they feel you need to ‘think about it for a while’.
@Schubert,
If I knew, back in August, what I know now, I would have booked my appointment at either Calgary or Toronto. Calgary, of course, is closer, but in Toronto, I have friends I could stay with while there. Mind you, I have no real way of knowing whether either Calgary or Toronto would accept my ‘church marriage certificate’ and my blurred birth certificate.
What would be really helpful is if the consulates would publish a list of exactly what you need to bring to the meeting ie civil marriage certificate rather than church, birth certificates with filing date and parents’ names etc. Of course, the way it is handled in Vancouver, you book online through notarial services and until you arrive at the appt., they do not know why you are there. It could be to get a deed of property notarized or some such thing.
I do so hope that other readers will learn from my experience. Make sure the marriage certificate is the CIVIL one (and I can’t help but wonder what the evangelicals in the Republican party think of that), and make sure your birth certificate shows both the “FILING DATE WITHIN ONE YEAR OF THE BIRTH AND PARENTS’ NAMES”.
Sure hope my documents arrive this week and then I can try to get on with my life by booking a 2nd appointment. If the Vancouver consulate ‘drags its’ feet’ in booking that appt., I may need to request that my file be transferred to Calgary or Toronto.
@Mach73 I completely agree, so does everyone else — except the consular staff in Vancouver and the embassy and Ottawa. That’s the whole point.
If you haven’t already, I suggest you or others visit the Consulate Report Directory thread and read recent posts by Tiger (who is in Vancouver) and her Kafka-esq interactions with Vancouver over her 40-year-ago relinquishment. No one who has a relinquishment case needs to think about anything for a while, they did all that years or in many cases decades ago already. And Tiger said that to the consular officer, and got nowhere with it.
There is no consistency or logic to any of this, that I can see, other than either bureaucratic stupidity or just plain malice. Neither of which is very comforting to contemplate.
So far no one going to Calgary, Toronto, Halifax, Montreal, or any number of embassies and consulates outside Canada has run into this, as far as I’m aware. In Switzerland the embassy in Bern is even giving renunciation oaths at the first interview, to try to clear the backlog and the logjam at the door. That makes a lot more sense to me than batching people into limbo for months; does anyone really go to a US consulate or embassy with a renunciation oath, never mind a relinquishment claim, firmly clutched in their hand without having already thought long and hard about it beforehand? Unless maybe they’re drunk or on drugs … or otherwise mentally incapacitated in some way, who’s going to do that? I don’t see why any CLN applicant needs a second interview to reflect. Try telling that to the State Department, though …
Hi Tiger, I see we were online at the same time, didn’t see your post until I’d put mine up.
As I said, everyone, check out Tiger’s story, it’s not pretty. Check out some of the comments on it by me and others, which I won’t repeat here for brevity. Some of us keep bouncing between Kafka, Stephen King, Lewis Carroll, and Joseph Heller for the most appropriate literary analogy to the anal-retentive crap going on in the Vancouver consulate.
Caveat emptor, as I was taught in high school Latin class …
*The only thing I know about Vancouver that might be a factor is the Consul General there previously served in some politically “sensitive” positions in DC, Iraq, and Afghanistan previously compared to Consul General’s in Calgary and Toronto which have not.
Sort of off topic…maybe not…but I am curious as to the documentation that the Consulate requires for reliquishment.
Right now I am a ceremony away from getting my Canadian Citizenship (wrote the exam couple of weeks ago), and have all the documentation form the Halifax consulate regarding DS-4079 forms etc. filled out and ready to go.
Will I need to get a Canadian passport before they accept the relinquishment because in my eyes the passport is nothing more than a travel document? Or are they happy with just the Canadian citizenship certificate?
Thanks in advance
@mach73,
That is a good question. Not sure of the answer, but I think you are right – the proof of ‘other citizenship’ should be enough. A Canadian passport does not take long to get, so if it is necessary to get one, I know they usually come within 2 weeks of application.
As far as other documents needed at the Consulate, please make sure your birth certificate has a filing date within one year of birth and both of your parents’ names. If there has been a name change since birth ie (marriage) then you also need the CIVIL marriage certificate.
@Mach73 If by chance you’ve had a legally registered name change other than via marriage, you need to bring the provincial or state certificate of that name change. Also you need to bring your driver’s license, of which they will make a high-resolution copy and return to you.
They may not ask to see it, but if you still have it, bring along your Canadian landed-immigrant card (or whatever it’s called these days) that documents when you entered Canada as a resident. Also bring a recent utility bill addressed to you at your current address; they may not ask for that, but some consulates have. If you have a current or your most recent expired US passport, bring that — they’ll take it and, if you wish, return it to you with your CLN, marked CANCELLED. Also print and complete (but don’t sign) DOS Form 4079, 4081, and (only if you’re renouncing) form 4080. The website links for the PDF files of those forms are posted elsewhere on this Brock website. If you have opted to attach an affidavit or statement to your form 4079 (see other discussion threads on this subject; this isn’t necessary but if you’re claiming intent to relinquish upon committing an expatriating act some years ago, I recommend attaching something that reiterates that you intended to relinquish your USC at that time and why you wanted to do that — also state clearly that since committing your expatriating act you have done absolutely nothing to claim or exercise any rights or benefits that are only available to US citizens, including ever having requested or accepted consular services from the US other than the CLN appointments themselves).
Bring your Canadian citizenship certificate with you (the original, not a copy; they’ll return it to you at the meeting after they copy it) as well as your current Canadian passport if you have one.
However, I note that you aren’t just yet a Canadian citizen but will be getting citizenship soon. I’m not convinced there is any advantage to claiming a relinquishment in your case, rather than a renunciation. As has been noted in other threads on this website, people who relinquished (via foreign naturalization) after 2004 will have to complete six years of back tax returns and a form 8854 if they want to cross the US border again safely, same as those who renounce. Persons who relinquished before 2004 (or 1994 depending on which legal argument you think is more solid), and certainly years before 1994, probably don’t need to do that. If in doubt, get advice on this from a lawyer (or maybe more than one lawyer). I’m not a lawyer, and even if I were, I wouldn’t give legal advice over this forum, if for no other reason than every case is somewhat different and I wouldn’t want to get into the fine personal details on a website.
One can argue that if your relinquishment is going to be based on Canadian naturalization this year, you’re better off renouncing. Though renunciation does require two appointments (at least in Canada) no matter where you go, it’s not open to arguments or judgment calls by State Department as to whether you truly intended to relinquish. If you swear an oath of renunciation, there is no possible argument about your intentions. There is the $450 fee, which so far in Canada isn’t being assessed against relinquishments, but in the grander scheme of things that fee may not be a reasonable deterrent to your decision.
Good luck to you, whatever you do, and I hope your CLN doesn’t take forever to get processed, if you do proceed to apply for one. Please let us know, if you feel comfortable doing so, which consulate you to and in what month your appointments were and (eventually) when you get your CLN, to help Calgary411 and Pacifica document the processing times in the chart posted elsewhere on this website. Those posts in the chart are kept anonymous.
@tiger @schubert1975
Thanks guys for the information, very useful indeed!
The reason i ask about the Cdn passport..is that most sites say that the consulate will not allow you to relinquish your citizenship without one….but my argument is that I AM (or will be shortly) a Cdn citizen with proof through my citizenship certificate…the passport in my mind is a travel document and therefore is a right of issue for citizenship but not the official document that says you are a citizen
@schubert1975
So basically you are saying NOT to fill out the DS-4080 if you are reliquishing?
That is what I intent to do (relinquish) as I have done an act of expatriation by getting Canadian citizenship (although lived here all my life as a perm resident…only applied for citizenship this year).
@Mach73 Form 4080 is clearly only for people who are renouncing. We have had one consular report where the consular officer asked the person to fill out all three forms, even though they were claiming a relinquishment, “just in case.” Personally I would never do that for a relinquishment, especially if you’re claiming you relinquished decades ago. How can you renounce something you don’t believe you have or have ever had since X years ago? Seems to me that signing that form is essentially admitting that you were in fact a USC up until signing the form, which blows away your relinquishment claim. I don’t see how anyone can do both. But then I’m not a State Department lawyer, thank God …
You mention you’ve been in Canada as a permanent resident all your life. If you were born in Canada to US parents, I don’t think you can claim a relinquishment but would have to renounce (the issue is that your citizenship or residence in Canada wasn’t voluntary or intentional on your part if it was by birth, you need to be over the age of 18 for them to accept volition and intent). But again, I’m not a lawyer, and if you have legal advice suggesting you can do that and how to do it, go for it and I hope it works. If you haven’t actually been a resident “all your life” but came to Canada on a permanent residency permit after the age of 18 and did so with the intention of giving up your USC, I’m not sure whether that works either. The US law specifically says taking out foreign citizenship with intent to relinquish, not foreign residence (without citizenship) with whatever intent. I’d be concerned in your case that you go through the relinquishment process only to be told by State they can’t accept your application under the law (though they’d have to accept your renunciation but in that case you’d probably have to start the interview process all over again).
Unless I’m mis-reading you, you probably need to get legal advice. If you live in or near Toronto, or don’t mind consulting over the telephone and the lawyer is willing to do that, you might start here:
http://www.keelcottrelle.com/directory.php?lawyer=cperry
There are other lawyers who also might be good, but I know this one has handled a fair number of renunciation and relinquishment cases. Get a quote on an hourly rate and on how many billable hours she thinks the consultation will take before proceeding (as with any lawyer).
@schubert1975
Thanks again for the info..
In my case, i was born in the US and then my parents moved to Canada in when i was an infant.
I appear in Canada under landed immigrant status, and had to get a PR card years ago when the regulations changed.
Does this mean i cannot relinquish?.
@Mach73 You could relinquish on the basis of your taking out citizenship this year, I guess, or you could just renounce. The only advantage I can see to relinquishment in your case would be to avoid the $450 fee, but there’s a risk they might not accept a relinquishment right after becoming a Canadian — though that’s essentially what Toronto and Washington did in Petros’ case, if I recall correctly, for whatever that will be worth when you go forward at whatever consulate. You’re going to be stuck with IRS Form 8854 and six years of returns and all that jazz in either case, since we’re in 2012 and not before 2004. So your tax situation will probably be the same whatever you do, at least as far as IRS is concerned.
I don’t see how you could claim relinquishment backdated to the time you moved to Canada as an infant, since you didn’t become a citizen then and anyway you were much to young to qualify for the volition-and-intent criterion even if your parents had taken out citizenship on your behalf (which they obviously didn’t). But that’s my interpretation, I’m not a lawyer, and IMO you definitely need to talk with a lawyer before proceeding with a relinquishment claim (I’d be extremely surprised if a lawyer would say you qualify for relinquishment, but I’ve been surprised before so don’t rely on my judgment). You have every right to renounce, and they can’t possibly deny you that right, but you definitely would get the $450 fee and the 8854 etc.
If you don’t plan ever to cross the US border again and your main concern is FATCA and Canadian financial institutions, speak with a lawyer about your situation. I’m not qualified or informed to even begin to guess how your situation would play out under FATCA, as and if it gets implemented in Canada. If FATCA is the main concern, I can see an argument for you to “sit tight” some more until we know for certain what is or isn’t going to fly in Canada under FATCA, one hopes before the end of this year.
I really can’t offer any further suggestions on this, and I stress I’m neither a lawyer nor an accountant. You should think carefully about whether to get professional legal and/or accounting advice, before doing anything.
Thanks again for the information….and here i thought my situation was pretty straight forward :(.
As far a US tax is concerned, i jumped through all of those hoops already and filed 6 years of back returns starting in 2011, along with FBAR etc.
My intention for relinquishment was not to back date it, but rather have it effective on the day i become a Canadian citizen..which will hopefully be next month.
This discussion is sort of upsetting as my main reason for relinqishment was not so much the money (450) but rather being able to not fall under the 1996 ‘reed’ amendment.
Thought I had it all figured out.