So now they will snoop on everyone who comes to them for information. Sounds like a police state to me.
Collecting IP address is nothing new and it has been a function of any web server such as apache or tomcat.
@ij- that may true, but I am sure that there are rules governing how that information can be used and who can access it. They are also one step removed from government hands. I guess that I am concerned about the IRS’ collection of such information because the IRS functions as a quasi police agency. And it would seem that people who visit their website are now being seen as possible threats to the state?
I would be worried about how long they can keep such information and what regulaltions govern its use by the agency. I’ll admit that I’m just thinking off the top of my head but it worries me when any government agency keeps information about me and does so without my consent.
I guess that I could visit their website and get answers to these questions but now that I know about the new policy, I’m not sure that I want to leave them with any information.
@recalcitrantexpat,
IP only does not help IRS to find the person who has visited, but internet providers may have exact information on which client has visited that web.
The collection is always there because the web sever has a log file to collect all the access client information such as IP, web browser type, version, etc.. This is the case for all web servers.
I agree that if IRS is using this log to track down who is visiting, that is a scary thing.
It is better to bring a PC to somewhere with free WIFI to visit the website if one does not want to leave a trace. Using a public PC may be better.
Recal, you sound a little paranoid, but I understand where you’re coming from. What IJ is saying is true, but what they “actually do” with the IP addresses is another thing. They are probably collecting the information to say how they are “worldwide” / helping expats all around the world,, to show to the American people. True BS – the reality is that they make our lives difficult wherever we go!! There’s very little that they could do with my IP address because it is recycled every hour or so and I can care less about going back there.
I have visited the IRS website, but a long time ago and against my better judgment, precisely because I anticipated this. Armed with information as to when an individual visited their site, that individual can be reclassified from “non-willful” to “willful” status. Welcome to the fun house.
@NorthernShrike,
“non-willful” to “willful” can not be simply based on IP access. Even if it can pinpoint your PC, it is still possible someone else who can use the computer visited that web link.
I do think the possible using IP to locate the PC (and the person). Say if a lot folks from Halifax visit OVDI/FBAR, IRS may send an agent there to visit banks for docs.
@ij
Good point. However, to be just a bit paranoid, using IP addresses of visitors they might compile a list of persons of interest, which they could run past PFFIs, such as non-US banks, i.e. “Do you have accounts for any of the following persons?”
The point here is that the standard is not legal admissability in a court of law. It can still be useful for them to identify individuals they would like to examine more closely. And, if it gets to the point of FBAR penalties, they might argue that someone in your home was checking out the IRS website. Can you seriously claim it was your nine year old son?
@NorthernShrike
Exactly!
web access log has always been used by “data mining”
Guys, stop being so paranoid. You’ll see they’re collecting IPs due to what I said. It’s just one of those political footballs. Peter could collect IPs if he wanted to… “Person of Interest”, maybe if you like the Canadian/American TV series. If you have a static IP (which most people have nowadays) it’s unreliable, only good for worldwide statistics gathering.
Best thing to do is BE compliant and just renounce like I’m going to do. Chances are I’m going to be Stateless to do it!! That’s how much I don’t WANT to be a US Person anymore!
*I would be surprised if this is a new policy. Up to this point, I had figured that they were already doing so and I don’t think that it is unusual, nor do I believe that it is a problem, but I could be wrong.
I tongue-in-check keep saying the day is coming when you will be penalized a $10K non willful penalty, if you fail to have IRS.gov as your browser homepage. 🙂 Now, I think I will add to that, by saying an additional $10K ‘willful’ penalty will also apply, if your IP address is not recorded at by the IRS at least once every 30 days. Failure to log in and be registered, is evidence of willful blindness of every new rule and regulation change that happens to the tax code daily! 🙂
@geez actually most people have always had dynamic addressess (this was so for dial up and is still the case for DSL, except when one opts for fixed addresses because they want to host something). This having been said, one can ocuppy a single address for a long time if their DSL stays up. ISPs also log who uses what address. Will foreign ISP’s cooperate with the IRS?
For the ultra-paranoid or ultra-cautious, there are several online IP address anonymizers, examples here and here. These retrieve web pages using their IP address and then forward the document content to you, so there’s no record of your IP at the far end.
*Watcher, anonymizers are a necessary means for Americans abroad to gain access to services available to stateside Americans.
The collection of IP address data is just what the IRS needs: more useless data to sift through. Good luck with that. Oh, by the way, what are you folks at the IRS doing with the millions of FBARs being filed? Are you using that data to regulate the money supply and currency flows? I didn’t think so. That doesn’t stop the Feds from lying about it in federal court and committing perjury.
*Maybe there is more to IP logging than I previously thought:
‘Big Data’ is the future. With this digital age of transparency,
we create 2.5 quintillion bytes of data every day. The game-changers –
companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook and Linkedin have been masters
at taking our own data and giving us very specific and personalized
recommendations for products, services, friends, food, business
partners, hobbies, investments, doctors….frankly, in everything that
touches our lives.
Now the IRS has taken a lesson from the game-changers and has created
the E-trak Offshore Voluntary Disclosure system in order to proactively
find non compliant US taxpayers.
U.S. taxpayers who are still considering whether to disclose
their accounts need to understand that the IRS’s data-mining software,
increases their risk of being detected. Additionally, the
phasing in over the coming year of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance
Act (FATCA) will only increase the breadth and depth of the data
available to the IRS and E-Trak. Taxpayers should act accordingly and
seek legal advice immediately, he warns, as taxpayers whose accounts IRS
has discovered are ineligible to participate in the Offshore Voluntary
Disclosure Program (OVDP).
Taxpayers with undisclosed accounts have options as previously
discussed, it’s important to find out your alternatives and to get out
in front of the IRS before it’s too late.
The Taxpayer’s Advocacy Panel is looking for ways to improve IRS processes and customer service. They will even accommodate USP’s living abroad! Perhaps it’s a nice place to vent. “All comments and suggestions are anonymous”:
Thanks for the link and for flagging that opportunity.
Have to vent here though, and share the usual complaint re IRS service to those of us ‘abroad’:
“International Taxpayers:The TAP member from Puerto Ricorepresents the interests
of U.S. citizens living overseas, including dual citizens, who must meet U.S. tax
obligations. If you have an international tax issue, please select “International”
in the state drop-down menu below.
So, in Puerto Rico, where
they don’t have to pay US taxes, they can effectively understand and represent the
concerns of over 1 million US persons in Canada, including duals, not to mention the other millions, from the rest of the globe – and respond or understand submissions from those who don’t speak English?
So now they will snoop on everyone who comes to them for information. Sounds like a police state to me.
Collecting IP address is nothing new and it has been a function of any web server such as apache or tomcat.
@ij- that may true, but I am sure that there are rules governing how that information can be used and who can access it. They are also one step removed from government hands. I guess that I am concerned about the IRS’ collection of such information because the IRS functions as a quasi police agency. And it would seem that people who visit their website are now being seen as possible threats to the state?
I would be worried about how long they can keep such information and what regulaltions govern its use by the agency. I’ll admit that I’m just thinking off the top of my head but it worries me when any government agency keeps information about me and does so without my consent.
I guess that I could visit their website and get answers to these questions but now that I know about the new policy, I’m not sure that I want to leave them with any information.
@recalcitrantexpat,
IP only does not help IRS to find the person who has visited, but internet providers may have exact information on which client has visited that web.
The collection is always there because the web sever has a log file to collect all the access client information such as IP, web browser type, version, etc.. This is the case for all web servers.
I agree that if IRS is using this log to track down who is visiting, that is a scary thing.
It is better to bring a PC to somewhere with free WIFI to visit the website if one does not want to leave a trace. Using a public PC may be better.
Recal, you sound a little paranoid, but I understand where you’re coming from. What IJ is saying is true, but what they “actually do” with the IP addresses is another thing. They are probably collecting the information to say how they are “worldwide” / helping expats all around the world,, to show to the American people. True BS – the reality is that they make our lives difficult wherever we go!! There’s very little that they could do with my IP address because it is recycled every hour or so and I can care less about going back there.
I have visited the IRS website, but a long time ago and against my better judgment, precisely because I anticipated this. Armed with information as to when an individual visited their site, that individual can be reclassified from “non-willful” to “willful” status. Welcome to the fun house.
@NorthernShrike,
“non-willful” to “willful” can not be simply based on IP access. Even if it can pinpoint your PC, it is still possible someone else who can use the computer visited that web link.
I do think the possible using IP to locate the PC (and the person). Say if a lot folks from Halifax visit OVDI/FBAR, IRS may send an agent there to visit banks for docs.
@ij
Good point. However, to be just a bit paranoid, using IP addresses of visitors they might compile a list of persons of interest, which they could run past PFFIs, such as non-US banks, i.e. “Do you have accounts for any of the following persons?”
The point here is that the standard is not legal admissability in a court of law. It can still be useful for them to identify individuals they would like to examine more closely. And, if it gets to the point of FBAR penalties, they might argue that someone in your home was checking out the IRS website. Can you seriously claim it was your nine year old son?
@NorthernShrike
Exactly!
web access log has always been used by “data mining”
Guys, stop being so paranoid. You’ll see they’re collecting IPs due to what I said. It’s just one of those political footballs. Peter could collect IPs if he wanted to… “Person of Interest”, maybe if you like the Canadian/American TV series. If you have a static IP (which most people have nowadays) it’s unreliable, only good for worldwide statistics gathering.
Best thing to do is BE compliant and just renounce like I’m going to do. Chances are I’m going to be Stateless to do it!! That’s how much I don’t WANT to be a US Person anymore!
*I would be surprised if this is a new policy. Up to this point, I had figured that they were already doing so and I don’t think that it is unusual, nor do I believe that it is a problem, but I could be wrong.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pia/mits28-pia.pdf
Plenty of info in the above PIA
I tongue-in-check keep saying the day is coming when you will be penalized a $10K non willful penalty, if you fail to have IRS.gov as your browser homepage. 🙂 Now, I think I will add to that, by saying an additional $10K ‘willful’ penalty will also apply, if your IP address is not recorded at by the IRS at least once every 30 days. Failure to log in and be registered, is evidence of willful blindness of every new rule and regulation change that happens to the tax code daily! 🙂
@geez actually most people have always had dynamic addressess (this was so for dial up and is still the case for DSL, except when one opts for fixed addresses because they want to host something). This having been said, one can ocuppy a single address for a long time if their DSL stays up. ISPs also log who uses what address. Will foreign ISP’s cooperate with the IRS?
For the ultra-paranoid or ultra-cautious, there are several online IP address anonymizers, examples here and here. These retrieve web pages using their IP address and then forward the document content to you, so there’s no record of your IP at the far end.
*Watcher, anonymizers are a necessary means for Americans abroad to gain access to services available to stateside Americans.
The collection of IP address data is just what the IRS needs: more useless data to sift through. Good luck with that. Oh, by the way, what are you folks at the IRS doing with the millions of FBARs being filed? Are you using that data to regulate the money supply and currency flows? I didn’t think so. That doesn’t stop the Feds from lying about it in federal court and committing perjury.
*Maybe there is more to IP logging than I previously thought:
The Taxpayer’s Advocacy Panel is looking for ways to improve IRS processes and customer service. They will even accommodate USP’s living abroad! Perhaps it’s a nice place to vent. “All comments and suggestions are anonymous”:
http://www.improveirs.org/speakup.aspx
@bubblebustin:
Thanks for the link and for flagging that opportunity.
Have to vent here though, and share the usual complaint re IRS service to those of us ‘abroad’:
“International Taxpayers: The TAP member from Puerto Rico represents the interests
of U.S. citizens living overseas, including dual citizens, who must meet U.S. tax
obligations. If you have an international tax issue, please select “International”
in the state drop-down menu below.
So, in Puerto Rico, where
they don’t have to pay US taxes, they can effectively understand and represent the
concerns of over 1 million US persons in Canada, including duals, not to mention the other millions, from the rest of the globe – and respond or understand submissions from those who don’t speak English?