Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

40 thoughts on “IRS Ruling on Relinquishment and Retroactivity from 1992. This is BIG”

  1. @Tim:  Thanks!    There are a couple of others besides Schubert who have CLNs from the 1970s.   One is Ladybug’s husband.  The other is TomOn.  I believe TomOn received registered letters followed by his CLN three years after his Canadian citizenship.  I believe Mr. Ladybug received a letter one year after his Canadian citizenship, another six months after that and finally his CLN.  Neither TomOn nor Mr. Ladybug knew how the Consulate was aware of their expatriation.

    When Mr. Ladybug’s letter from the Consulate was posted at Brock, it twigged something in the back of my mind.  I remembered receiving a very similar letter probably about a year after I became a Canadian citizen in 1973.  I remember thinking it was weird and wondered how Vancouver US Consulate knew, although I remembered signing a document the day of my Canadian citizenship ceremony renouncing former citizenship.  I think I threw the letter away, thinking it was irrelevant and merely confirmed what I already knew–I had (supposedly) “permanently and irrevocably” severed US citizenship.

     By the time the second letter would have been mailed, I had moved from Vancouver to Ontario. By the time CLN would have been mailed, I had moved to another Ontario city. 

    I have put in a Freedom of Information request to DOS to see if they can locate the letters which may have been mailed to me, along with a copy of the CLN.  I’m not optimistic, but it’s worth a try.

    I’m not sure if this posting clarifies or muddies things further, but I really appreciate your tracking it down and posting it here.

  2. @Tim,

    “It is my understanding that to receive a back dated CLN you must indicate and evidence ”intention” both in the present and in the past when the relinquishing act took place.”

    Exactly!  That’s my reading, too, of the Act and jurisprudence.  And it’s the story of my life.  Citizenship involves a lot more than taxes, I want an accurate record of reality.  

  3. *pacifica777

    I am going to have a “special” treat later tonight. Full CLN issuance numbers from 1962 to 2012.

  5. @Blaze, that would be too good to be true. I will keep my fingers crossed, but not hold my breath. If names were there, then at least my sister and mother’s would be there, even if not mine. Then maybe my poor, ill, mother could fnally quit worrying.

  8. UPDATE:

    I have received word from Phil Hodgen that this ruling is STILL VALID AND IN EFFECT. Phil will be posting an item on his blog shortly.

  9. *@Blaze,

    How did the US consulate learn of your becoing a Canadian citizen?  I do not know how it is in Canada, but in Brazil when a citizen of a foreign country becomes a naturalized Brazilian citizen, the Brazilian Government formally advises the embassy of that foreign country that the indivdual has become a citizen of Brazil.  Does the Canadian Government have a similiar policy?

  10. @ Roger,
    That goes with my recollection, that I was told by an Cdn govt official shortly before acquiring Canadian citizenship, that Canada routinely informed the US govt of who had acquired Canadian citizenship and I assumed that some clerk in Washington would record that this person is no longer a US citizen. I remember also it crossing my mind that “Canada Immigration didn’t hand me a US document to fill out, but I guess that that’s [CIC sending this info to the US govt] what takes care of tying up the loose ends.”

    Two or three people posted on Brock that, after obtaining Canadian citizenship, they received a letter from the US govt that if they didn’t reply to the letter within 60 days, stating that they wanted to keep their US citizenship, the citizenship would be considered abandoned. This occurred 30-40 years ago, in the same time period as my expatriation.

    But I and apparently the vast, vast, vast majority of people never received such a letter (just heard of this in 2012). It implies, however (1) that the US govt did get some sort of list of people; and (2) if you didn’t inform the US govt that you had intended to keep US citizenship, you were deemed to have relinquished it.

  11. Found this: http://taxblog.com/ainfanti/domestic-law-and-tax-treaties-the-united-states/

    Discusses the application of the last-in-time or later-in-time rules on US tax treaties.

    Don’t know exactly how this might add to the discussion on this thread, but offering it to those who’ve got a better grip on this situation in case it is useful. I only included a small sample below, you need to read the entire section in it’s entirety.

    Domestic Law and Tax Treaties: the United States

    By Anthony Infanti on February 2, 2012

    “3.2.3. The Expatriation Example

    Recent amendments to the Code’s regime applicable to tax expatriates
    provide a nice illustration of the later-in-time rule in action.”……..

    see also;

    ……..”More commonly, the United States has been the breaching party and not the victim of a breach of a tax treaty. Given the frequency of U.S. treaty overrides, it should come as no surprise that a number of recent U.S. tax treaties include a provision that allows the non-breaching party to require the breaching party to return to the negotiating table to address any imbalance in benefits created by an override.”……

  13. *Not exactly the same thing but when I made an access to information request last fall to get a copy of my certificate of birth abroad, I was given a copy of the complete file. After my father made the application to Canada for my certificate, Canada first checked with the United States to see if he had taken on US citizenship, the US replied back that he had not, on so he could pass on Canadian citizenship to me. I have copies of the letters from both the US and Canada. In the 1950’s at least Canada and the US seem to have been communicating by mail. For those that are trying to get information from the US that they lost US citizenship, they may want to try a Canadian information request as well, there could be something there.

  14. @TrueNorth:   I already have the information from my CIC citizenship file.  It confirms I signed a oath witnessed by a CIC official renouncing any present or former citizenship.  However, it does not give me a CLN nor does it contain a copy of the letter from Vancouver Consulate. 

    I don’t see how any Canadian bank could refuse to accept that as confirmation that I renounced US citizenship in 1973–despite what the US may now want to claim.  It is very interesting US didn’t care about me or my money then.  I didn’t have any money in 1973.  I was young at the beginning of my career.  Now that I’m close to retirement with savings, RRSPs, pension, TFSAs, a mortgage-free home, etc., I will not report on or give US one penny of my income or assets which were entirely earned, saved, invested and taxed in Canada. 

    @Roger:  I don’t know how Vancouver Consulate knew of my Canadian citizenship ceremony, but based on TomOn and Mr. Ladybug’s experience, there must have been some sharing between the two governments.  I had called the Consulate to ask about US citizenship.  They were clear, direct and firm. I was “permanently and irrevocably” renouncing US citizenship by becoming a Canadian citizen.  I did not, however, give them any specifics about when I was becoming a Canadian citizen.

    Of course, I am now kicking myself for not saving the letter and for not ensuring the Consulate had my forwarding address when I moved.   How could I have ever anticipated that 40 years later I would need to prove to the US that I am no longer a US citizen.

    Silly me, I believed them when they said loss of US citizenship was “permanent and irrevocable.”

    This thread and posts from Michael J Miller and Steven Mopsick do give me hope.  Belonging to Brock gives me strength.

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