Roger sent me an early morning email, saying that my name made into the Miami Herald, and I immediately began to comment at the McClatchy site: IRS crackdown on foreign assets leading many to renounce U.S. citizenship.
There I’ve had a numerous interactions with commenters. Here is what has appeared thus far:
Petros wrote
Hi! My name is Peter W. Dunn, and I am a blogger at the Isaac Brock Society. I am the one mentioned in this article. I don’t know why the moderator took down my original comment, perhaps because I included a link to our blog, where people can get information about why Americans abroad are renouncing their citizenship. I am sorry that I have to go to such lengths to have free speech. But I think that it is the least you can do, since you have mentioned my name in the article, that you give me an opportunity to respond to the article.
The reason why we are renouncing is because the IRS is breathing down our necks. Most of us are not rich people. We are just normal people who have learned about unreasonable filing requirements, such as telling the IRS about the contents of all our financial accounts, or face draconian fines up to 300% of our total wealth (=50% willful fines times six years statute of limitations). We renounce out of self protection, but not only so, to protect our spouses, many of whom are not even US citizens. Please, do not erase this comment this time.
Timr wrote:
so you are excusing the fact that you are a tax cheat, because? Using your wife to hide your income is a pretty filch thing to do. And, if you think you are just a “normal” person then you are not only lying to the IRS but you are also lying to yourself. So you hope to get a Canadian passport? Doesn’t it also mean that you will now have to pay Canadian taxes? Which BTW, are higher than US taxes.
Petros wrote:
Timr I invite you to the Isaac Brock Society, where you can find out more about me. I left the United States in 1986. I’ve lived in Canada since 1995, and am a now a Canadian citizen. You don’t have to tell me about Canadian taxes, I am intimately familiar with it. I also am up to date with my US tax filings. I owe nothing. In addition, you can be sure that my reason for relinquishing my citizenship has to do with escaping the long reach of the IRS, and their attempts to make expats pay because they actually have no representation in Congress and cannot vote the idiots running your country out of office.
Golfer78015 wrote:
People who refuse to pay taxes should have everything they own confiscated and be put in jail.
golfer–you’re pretty smart. Have you read the fifth amendment? Do you know what due process is?
What is the protocol for treason?
Petros wrote to dw1206:
Why, do you want to charge Barack Obama and numerous members of his administration for their violations of the Constitution of the United States? Or is your question pointed at me because I used my God-given right, refered to in the Declaration of Independence, to separate myself from unjust government?
What is the appropriate thing to say to these evaders? Good riddance?
Petros wrote
Yeah, debbie, we feel the same way about your IRS. I mean when you have a chance, think about how the IRS threatens us with fines of 300% of our bank accounts
gmartini wrote:
For the life of me, I cannot feel sorry for your situation. You have broken our laws and well, you must suffer the consequences. All actions have consequences, correct? I get that no one really likes the IRS nor their tactics, but paying taxes is the law.
Petros replied to gmartini”
I have broken laws? What are you talking about? FBAR? Don’t make me laugh. That is a farce of a law, and a violation of most of my constitutional rights. Please see an article I wrote with Monty Pelerin, When government turns predator on the FBAR law.
gmartini wrote to Petros:
You have tried to conceal income, thus avoiding the income tax. THAT is breaking the law. And please re-read you reply to me….you have contradicted yourself and in a round about way, incriminated yourself in the process. I will allow you to figure out how…..
Petros wrote:
gmartini, I am tax compliant in the United States. I don’t owe anything. I pay my taxes in Canada, and you are now libelous because you say that I am concealing income, which is an absolutely unprovable assumption on your part. I have not contradicted myself. It is a long and clear principle of law that an unjust law is no law. [originally I mistaken wrote, I pay my taxes in the United States–I am tax compliant, but don’t owe anything in the US]
gmartini wrote to Petros:
Thank you for explaining the very basics of the Natural Law Theory to me. Martin Luther King Jr. used it to denounce segregation; I get it. But what I do NOT get is how and why wealthy people try everything possible to avoid paying taxes. I don’t care what country you profess your allegiance to, the fact of the matter is NOT paying income tax in this country is illegal and a punishable offense. Get over it and pay your fare share! You are NOT special nor above a law that YOU do not agree with. Regardless if you agree with a law or not, it is still the law. Until that particular law is changed or abolished YOU, like the rest of us, must comply. And might I suggest you research what join accounts/community property means!
Petros wrote to gmartini:
I pay all my taxes here in Canada. I don’t need your lectures about paying taxes. It is really ignorant on your part to think that I should have to pay taxes in two countries. That’s why I renounced my citizenship. Its because people like you can vote to tax expats. It is a form of thuggery.
DW1206 wrote:
I hope it’s worth it to them. There are many foreigners who would do anything to be American citizens. It is amazing what greed can do to people!
Petros wrote:
Yes, greed can cause people to vote for politicians who will try to steal money from Expats because they have no representation in Congress. Yes, greed can cause people to put Obama in power so that he can go after the expats and threaten them with 300% fines if they don’t hand over 27.5% of their savings to the IRS. Yes, it is amazing what greed can do.
54 thoughts on “Feeding the Trolls at McClatchy”
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@petros, you may mention how there are citizens of other countries that are deemed to be US citizens through a US parent who are obligated to pay US tax even though they may have never stepped a foot in the US! Are they tax cheats?
Incredible how these newspapers are lumping all of us together with the Americans who hided foreign investments from the IRS. We have to try to make clear that we are not the same.
@bubblebustin: Based on some of the vile comments I’m reading on the other website, I’m sure many would say yes on the children issue. They think they own us all.
Like IRS, many are convinced we are tax cheats, tax evaders, traitors, and criminals. And, horror of horrors–we are also liberals! I think they would even lump Canada’s conservatives in that last group!
The level of ignorance and animosity is terrifying. Douglas Shulman has groomed them well.
@petros, Thank you for stepping up to the plate on this one. I am sorry to say that the vicious and unfounded abuse that has been directed at you is just tyypical of the attitude of most members of Congress towards US persons who have chosen to exercise their UN guaranteed right to leave the country of birth. Their reaction is to impose cruel and unusual punishment for excercising their God given and consitutional right to freely leave the country where they were born to marry a person from another country and chose to live, work and raise a family in that other country.
Keep standing tall! Ylou are an inspiration to us all.
You will never convince these people. They live in the US and simply cannot conceive of people living in another country, being not rich and having a simple bank account. We don’t get any services from the US and have no representation. How could anyone even keep a straight face when demanding taxes?
@grromit: If we label all American in the US as the same, we are doing the same as those who criticize us.
I was in the US recently. When I told childhood friends about this IRS quagmire, they were appalled. Many said “Why do we wonder why people hate the US so much?”
We need to keep trying to work one person at a time to change these vicious attitudes.
Most resident US Citizens have this childish “You left our team!” attitude. After all, all they hear every day is how many poor people want to be Americans. A lot of people grew up during the Cold War, like me. So when they showed one of those escape stories, you really felt like the US was the best place on earth.
Times have changed. Americans need a reality check. Many places that were worse than the US 30 years ago are now BETTER in many aspects!
It’s impossible to convince these people. If you want to do it Peter, then go for it. But me, I gave up about 11 years ago when I returned to the US. From that point forward, I just wanted to get back out.
I’ll just keep it on the DL and renounce quietly because this is REALLY a case of arguing with ignorant people. Ignorant because they don’t have 1 clue as to what life abroad is really like.
@To all, I also really appreciate Petros’ efforts but worry he may be presenting his argument too vehemently and inevitably these posters are reacting very angrily. Who’s to say that one of them might become a whistle blower or even accuse IBS as being terrorists? I realise it sounds ludicrous but I’m concerned that we might be deemed provocative, especially when gloating about
When gloating about renouncing…with their mindset they will definitely accuse our organisation of inciting treasonous acts. Perhaps I am too cautious but it’s such a fine line between presenting our case but making them so angry they refuse to hear us out. Though maybe Victoria and Peter are correct in that it will unfortunately take a degree of nastiness…but that’s never been my style.
Petros
Valiant effort, but you are trying to educate brainwashed people who think that the US is the only place in the world worth living in, and that US law applies everywhere. You can’t out-logic that kind of prejudice. What’s truly scary is just how many people down there think like that.
The only positive I can pull from those vile comments is that if the majority of Americans think like that, and therefore their Congresscritters think like that, the odds of the rest of the world going along with their extra-territorial reach will diminish. Sooner or later, others will wake up to the fact that you can’t negotiate with tax-terrorists.
@monalisa: I don’t think your perception is ludicrous at all. I’m surprised someone hasn’t already accused us of being terrorists. Right now, some of them seem to think liberal is the nastiest word they can throw at us.
I think I should stay off of there in my Brock uniform. The way they’re going after Petros, think what they would do to a Redcoat with a sword!
I personally feel more comfortable explaining the problems regarding double taxation, investment discrimination, closed accounts, compliance costs and complexities but saving discussion of renunciation as the nuclear option. Otherwise, it’s too shocking for them and they will reject what we’re trying to say.
@Blaze and @Arrow, yes, it is going to require both being diplomatic and discrete. Just seems common sense, really. Plus some of us like myself want to ideally resolve these issues without having to giving up US citizenship. It’s not as though everyone on here wants to renounce. It’s certainly a mess but isn’t a black and white situation for many here.
Remember that it is people who react impulsively that are vilifying Petros, and I don’t believe they represent the majority. I believe there are many many more who read what he says, who worry about what has happened to freedom in America, and who go away and think about what he says. I think there really is a silent majority who will speak in the voting booth.
@Arrow: I would love to think you are right about the rest of the world balking at FATCA. You may want to check out these two articles:
One claims a breakthrough on FATCA in Europe. On a positive note, that one seems to address only requirements for reporting on accounts held offshore by US residents and doesn’t seem to add much to what was in the Europe Five agreement. Canada has had such an agreement with US for years.
In the other article, Forbes asks if Irish Eyes Are Smiling on FATCA. Again, if Ireland gets the same deal as the other European countries, that would seem to mean reporting on accounts of US residents. And, of course, “reciprocity” is dependent on US reporting on accounts held in American banks–which seems to be far from a done deal.
http://www.europolitics.info/economy-monetary-affairs/breakthrough-in-foreign-bank-accounts-dispute-says-semeta-art333666-30.html
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2012/05/07/are-irish-eyes-smiling-on-fatca/
@foxyladyhawk…I don’t believe there is a silent majority. I think they are a silent minority. At the end of the day, for the most part, they will go along with the statist quo because it is easier to live your life without attracting undue attention. Sort of why I’m writing rather anonymously here.
The vehement reactions to Petros are probably more common than not. No one thinks about freedom any more. Just security. Sheeple. Would rather be herded to their certain slaughter and defend the owners of the slaughterhouse, as well.
It is not the same country I grew up in or the people I grew up around. The powers that be have ensured that people are afraid of their own shadows and need the cover of uncle gubmint to get them through the day.
[/rant]
@Gentleman: “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” (Abraham Lincoln)
Right now, US seems to be on the path to self-destruction. What would Abe say?
@Blaze: I certainly didn’t intend to label “all” Americans as the same (nor do I think I did). I have many American friends and family who are very sympathetic to our plight. That said, a widely held conscript in the US is “don’t let the door hit you on your way out!” These people simply do not understand the problem.
@Grommit: That’s exactly what’s happening on the other website. Several are saying “Good riddance.” If only we could say “good riddance to US and IRS that easily!
@Blaze it is certainly making my decision to renounce less difficult.
I don’t believe I have ever been so afraid of my own government (and the people who support it)…I’m certainly not as afraid of the British government or its representatives.
@to all, to be fair, I used to think more like those people when I used to hear of people renouncing…it seemed deeply offensives to my sensibilities but this was before I became aware of all the nuances and deep problems. I would like to think that many of them would become more understanding if they understood the issues we face. Even Mr Mopsick was initially critical but came around once he grasped the dilemmas.
I unfortunately think the Miami Herald blogger attacks on Petros reflect the mindset of the majority of people in the Homeland today.
Most Homelanders have been brainwashed to blindly believe in the moral superiority of their system, and by default, view ex-pats with a high degree of suspicion.
In their eyes, any Americans living outside the Homeland must be FATCATS or criminals. They will never value or care about us. In fact, deep down inside, some of them may actually be jealous.
Therefore, American ex-pats will always be looked upon with scorn. It is just the way it is.
So for me, if I wanted to gain “peace of mind,” renunciation was something that I knew I had to do.
@all, I believe that like many elsewhere in the world, Americans in the US desire to know the truth. With each of these there is the opportunity to get our message out to one more, as painful and frustrating as it is trying to drill through their stubborn misconceptions. Eliciting empathy will be the thin edge of the wedge here. Make an effort, look for headway, if you can’t make any, drive on. Don’t forget, we’re a curiosity to many of these folks who couldn’t imagine living outside the US borders. By that nature, we ARE different. Maybe trying to find common ground would be a helpful start. Just an idea.
I believe we must patiently and friendly keep focusing on the difference between Americans in the USA who have hidden foreign bank accounts and Americans Living and Working Abroad who have bank accounts in their country of residency and have no need to hide anything. Let’s keep doing this.
Rapier –
statist quo
Touché!