I don’t how I missed this gem of a letter but apparently in the fall MP Denise Savoie of Victoria sent a letter to US President Obama on the subject of FATCA, OVDI, FBAR etc. I have linked to it below.
http://denisesavoie.ca/download/1467/letter_to_president_obama.pdf
MP Savoie also has a section of her website devoted to US tax issues(although it hasn’t been updated since December) in which she continues to indicate her opposition to FATCA.
http://denisesavoie.ca/us-tax-information
I am also trying to get together all of the official responses we have received and obtained for submission to Deloitte’s FATCA comments page. I don’t know whether Deloitte will publish them but there are all very much authentic.
If anyone wants to helpful post a link to any previously published letters here at Isaac Brock Society.
In the current Supreme Court case about Arizona’s new immigration law I found some interesting back and forth between a Supreme Court Justice and a U.S. Solicitor General regarding whether a citizenship database exists.
@omghestillanamerican
To my previous comment about Randy and Evi Quaid. My understanding at least is that Evi Quaid has a “clean” record as a matter of Canadian law despite being detained at the border for not having proper documentation. Basically after being detained for several days by CBSA it was determined she was in fact a Canadian citizen and allowed to go on her way with a “clean” record. I guess personally being “detained” by CBSA overnight is not something I generally would want to experience my guess in some sense anyone eligible to enter Canada can just show up at the border with no ID so I guess it makes my earlier point #6 somewhat moot.
Once Evi Quiad was released by CBSA and got proof of Canadian citizenship she was able to get her US citizen husband released in Canada into her custody. Having said that it is interesting that it took several days for her to prove her Canadian citizenship to the satisfaction of CBSA.
All day, in the back of my mind, ideas for taglines have been fomenting. How about something along the lines of
“for all persons affected by United States citizenship based taxation”.
@outraged
also have been mulling over words, but they get more complicated.
I like yours but only if it is “all persons residing abroad and affected by …” I don’t want to see us messing with what goes on inside US borders.
Best other choice suggested privately by someone else was “for all present and former US persons abroad” but the wording of former needs to be expanded or complicated to include people who fall between those cracks, notably so-called accidental (or unwilling or unwitting) Americans who reject the idea they’re US persons and ever have been, never as adults either having lived in the US or having exercised US citizenship rights.
@Shubert, I take your point. I was thinking the tagline didn’t include people inside the US, because they ARE in the US and therefore logically have to pay just as we have to pay in the countries of our residence. The only issue I have (and it’s a small one) with the term persons residing abroad is the term ‘abroad’. That term seems to be what gets mainlanders goat and causes the kneejerk negative reactions. I could be wrong on that, it’s only my perception from reading all of the asinine comments on various articles. Persons living outside the US borders? I am one of those that reject the idea I’m a US person, but I’m still affected by the US’s citizenship based taxation – because the US is TRYING to reclaim me. That was my thinking on it, aanyway. However, I’m certainly not emotionally tied to my suggestion 🙂
The topic recurs! Whatchamacallit Whatever common usage may be, however gappy the semantic field spreads out, the word abroad is fated to carry a heavy freight of multiple negative connotations. For the record, USxCanada is not “abroad.”
And one irresistable new parting jab: “liberty and justice” is so tainted by association with that kludge of illegiance. Give me liberté, égalité, fraternité and turn me loose.
@usxcanada
“kludge of illegiance”
ROTFLMAO!
Good points about liberty, justice and abroad. As a supposedly (and marginally) bilingual Canadian I can live with the French wording quite happily. Though that risks waving another red flag in front of the “freedom fries” crowd, but then we’re not ever likely to win them over anyway.
On further reflection, I increasingly like the qualfying wording Outraged proposed:
“… all persons affected by United States citizenship-based taxation.”
It’s growing on me. It finesses the isssue of what kinds of persons we are or aren’t. We’re all in the same boat, we’re all being screwed over (or so they intend) by US citizenship-based taxation instead of residency or income-source based taxation like the civilized universe.
Maybe “sanity for all persons affected by US citizenship-based taxation?” Probably too provocative … and too unrealistic given the Congresscritters we’re dealing with.
In typically Canadian fashion, maybe we just slide back into the status quo wording, absent anything better we can all agree on. But I still can live with, and rather like, “liberty and justice (or whatever short snappy replacement that doesn’t evoke that hypocritical pledge we don’t want to hear again) for all persons affected by US citizenship-based taxation.” At least it gets around that problematic “US person” label the IRS keeps slapping on people who don’t recognize nor want it, while still including those who do want to remain US persons or retain that option, without seeing Uncle Sam plunder their life savings.
@ schubert1975
How about “freedom and fairness” instead of “liberty and justice”?
How about “Citizens of the world united to free American slaves by abolishing citizenship based taxation”?
@all,
I like ““… all persons affected by United States citizenship-based taxation.”” , but how about ‘all persons SUBJECTED to United States citizenship-based and extra-territorial taxation’? Or, ‘citizenship-based asset reporting and taxation’?
I would like to get away from just the ‘taxation’ aspect – which Geithner and Shulman and McMahon, etc. like to toss around, because the increasingly evil FBAR and FATCA reporting and penalty burdens have only a peripheral link to actual tax liability as they are being applied – and are moving into a whole other realm – the assets are post-tax where we earned them and we duly reported the interest income where we live – so it is about keeping detailed records on our assets, not the more traditional type tax records on earnings. Some of the assets like RRSPs will be reported on over and over and over for our lifetimes – until cashed at retirement. It isn’t really the interest ‘earnings’ we’re compelled to report, it is the entire asset – and account – even those that earn no interest, and thus no ‘income’.
And in a broader sense, although it all is rationalized by the IRS and Congress as ‘taxes’, it is continuing to move far beyond ‘taxation’; FATCA results in the denial of access to banking (as per European examples, abrogates privacy, and threatens our families’ financial security), and decides for us what strategies we can use to save for the future and discriminates against those with disabilities abroad (ex. not recognizing RDSPs). Perhaps with our chosen wording, we could recognize the issues that most affect immigrants and those with ‘substantial presence’ in the US (whether immigrating there from Canada – like many greencard holders, snowbirds, etc. AND also those from India, China, with accounts ‘abroad’). The category of ‘immigrant’ to the US includes many many Canadians, since there is a lot of cross-border US/Canadian movement – and therefore, is not necessarily from a non-N.American country. Several of those on this site gave examples such as: they were born to Canadian students studying in the US, or went there to work temporarily, etc.
I am trying to include as many people as possible, because I think we are stronger that way. We have benefited from hearing from ij, and from people outside N.America. I think we could even start dedicated sections of the site if we wanted to encourage contributors with specific issues (ex. greencards, or family accounts in home countries, etc.) to have a place to focus on those aspects.
I agree that the issues go much deeper, however I guess I see citizenship based taxation as the root of all evil. It’s the excuse. If they didn’t have that, they’d have to come up with another reason to bully banks into becoming informers, and regular folks into quivering messes who must report on themselves.
I can certainly that dedicated sections could be used. I like having this one place to go, and then I can pick and choose which stream I want to check out.