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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
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Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
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2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@Maz and Tiger,
Re: Vancouver consulate said, “If you start there [Calgary], you must finish there.”
I say, big deal, it only takes one visit, so what difference does it it make.
BTW, I think Tiger’s referring to me as the person who had to go to a second consulate, as not knowing about Ottawa’s reputation at the time, I went there. It worked out fine in the end — I was in and out of Toronto in about an hour, most of it waiting time, both clerk and consul were very pleasant and efficient. It actually felt like these consulates represented two different countries.
@Tiger, it does sound like Vancouver is making up rules, and I don’t think it’s a rule they’re allowed to make up. I don’t think they can forbid Calgary (or any consulate) from seeing a person because they opened their file at Vancouver. I think you should take this matter to a higher level, if necessary. It’s ridiculous for Vancouver to make you wait 13 months for a second appointment to sign the sign the papers for your CLN (based on your 40 year ago relinquishment). Cruel, too — you can’t live the next 13 months as if the past 40 years never existed!
@ Pacifica and Tiger. I’ve given up on Vancouver (their diabolical plan for refusal of service is working splendidly) and will probably drive to Calgary in the spring. A May road trip across southern BC sounds like way more fun than a plane ride plus I can drop in on some friends coming and going. In the end I’ll wind up with the prized CLN quicker anyway.
The only thing that would make me go to the Vancouver Consulate at this point is if they completely changed their modus operandi. Not bloody likely I’m afraid.
Meanwhile I’ve successfully crossed the border on my new Canadian passport with nary a raised eyebrow. Of course there’s no guarantee it will be trouble free next time! On the other hand crossing previously on my US passport I’ve been asked “how long I intended to stay?” Go figure.
*Has anyone contacted Ottawa about the situation in Vancouver?
Sounds like a plan, Maz. Vancouver’s really dragging their heels on bookings. Not sure why.
So, I decided to compare the two largest consular districts, Toronto and Vancouver.
Toronto is currently offering 155 appointments, all in February. Vancouver is currently offering 3 appointments, all in July. (That’s 5100% more appointments available.)
It looks like Toronto has about 20% more staff than Vancouver, according to DFAIT.
In 1999 (the last year I can find stats for) there were 250,000 USCs registered with the Toronto consulate and 200,000 registered with Vancouver (that’s also 20%), which might be a rough indicator of how many USCs in each consular district. (obviously not all USCs register and people who relinquished years ago certainly wouldn’t, but a rough indicator).
Overall, Toronto consulate covers an area with a population of 250% greater than that which Vancouver covers (approx 11,000,000 to 4,000,000).
Not sure what to make of the stats and there’s undoubtedly more pieces to the puzzle. Just looked them up out of curiosity.
Just checked the Vancouver July appointment page and it’s already down to only one left. I’m sure as hell not wasting any July days on this silliness. July is prime sailing time! I’ll stick with my Calgary plan.
13-01-15 Ongoing honest services fraud by the Jerusalem, Jerusalem Consulate of the United States, in re: Adminitration of Oath of Renunciation of US Citizenship.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. In particular, I am interested in hearing from others that were denied the right to take the Oath of Renunciation of US Citizenship, and how they may have handled the situation.
Joseph Zernik, PhD
Human Rights Alert (NGO)
123456xyz@gmail.com
_____
Summary
The case below shows the real nature of FATCA, a law that has not been promulgated, that conflicts with the laws of other nations, and which promotes lawlessness and deprivation of rights of US citizens abroad.
1) on January 1, 2013, my accounts in the Israeli Bank HaPoalim, holding some $250,000 were seized. These accounts had no investments in securities, US or otherwise, and had no reporting duty. Regardless, the total funds in the accounts were seized by the bank with no basis in the law of either Israel or the United States.
2) On January 7, 2013 I appeared for a scheduled appointment in the US Consulate, Jerusalem for renunciation of US citizenship. I was interviewed by a person, who represented himself as “Consul Kirk G Smith”. Another appointment was scheduled for January 14, 2013, for administration of the oath of renunciation.
3) On January 14, 2013, I appeared before “Consul Kirk G Smith” for the administration of the oath of renunciation. Upon review of the conduct and records, one would conclude that the Consulate in Jerusalem engaged in fraud, through the deliberate administration of invalid oath of renunciation, and the issuance of simulated records.
4) On January 14, 2013, I tried to open a new account with the Israeli Bank HaPoalim, as a non US citizen, and my request was denied. The Bank refuses to respond in writing, or on what legal basis.
5) On January 14, and January 15, 2013, I tried to open a new account with the Israeli Bank Leumi. My request was denied, and the Bank refuses to provide written explanation,why my request is denied.
Some suggest that it is retaliation for my social activism. Maybe, but such lawless conduct would never have been possible absent the false appearance of legality under FATCA. The true nature of FATCA has not much to do with tax collection, but as a means to control the banks of other nations and in particular, to unlawfully control US citizens abroad.
The striking feature of FATCA in this story is how well FATCA works, only days after the date of its purported effectiveness, in conjunction with various other unlawful fraud and retaliation measures by the US government.
_____
COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE US CONSULATE,
JERUSALEM, IN RE: FALSE AND ADMINISTRATION OF OATH OF RENUNCIATION OF US
CITIZENSHIP, ISSUANCE OF FALSE, INVALID RELATED RECORDS.
In reverse chronological order
1)
January 15, 2013: Zernik to US Consulate
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 17:11:01 +0200
To: “Jerusalem, ACS” <JerusalemACS@state.gov>,
SmithKG@state.gov, RatneyMA@state.gov
From: joseph zernik <123456xyz@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: FW: URGENT: Response within 1 business days is kindly requested;
RE: Invalidity of January 14, 2013, procedures, records, related to
administration of oath of renunciation of US citizenship
Consulate of the United States
Jerusalem, Jerusalem
URGENT: Response within 1 business days is kindly
requested;
RE: Invalidity of January 14, 2013, procedures, records, related to
administration of oath of renunciation of US citizenship
Dear Consul Ratney and Consul Smith:
Thank you for your quick response. However, your response below fails to
respond on two central questions:
a) Is the US Consulate in Jerusalem, Jerusalem, in general, and you in
particular, credentialed by any nation? Are you a consul at large? Are
you appointed by the State Department to the Jerusalem, Jerusalem Consulate?
b) The validity, or invalidity of the procedures employed by Consul Kirk G
Smith for the administration of the oath of renunciation and the validity, or
invalidity of the records that were issued by Consul Kirk G Smith, which on
their face appear as honest services fraud, a federal offence.
I would be grateful if Consul Ratney, or Consul Kirk answer directly on these
two questions.
In case the US Consulate, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, is not willing to state that
the procedure of renunciation, which I was subjected to on January 14, 2013,
and the records, which were issued on the same date are valid records, in
compliance with the law of the United States, I request immediate refund of
fees, which I paid for services, which were never honestly delivered.
Truly,
Joseph Zernik, PhD
2) January 15, 2013: US Consulate to Zernik
At 02:44 PM 1/15/2013, you wrote:
Dear Mr.
Zernik,
Thank you for your correspondence of January 14, 2013 regarding your potential
renunciation of your U.S. citizenship. I can assure you that I take your
concerns very seriously indeed.
To answer your question regarding my appointment at the Consulate General, I am
the Chief of the American Citizen Services Unit. I am an officer of the
U.S. Department of State, and I hold the diplomatic title of Consul.
As to your concerns regarding the form of your renunciation, I believe that the
form and content of the documents are correct. However, as I explained to
you at both our first and second meeting, only the Department of State in
Washington, DC can make the final determination. To that end, your Oath
of Renunciation, which you executed before me on Monday January 14, 2013 at the
U.S. Consulate Generals Consular Office, has been forwarded to the Department
for review.
If the Department determines that the Oath is acceptable, they will so notify
me, and I will in turn notify you. Again, as I explained when we met,
this review may take some time, perhaps even a few months, to complete.
Your renunciation would then be effective as of January 14, 2013, the date you
executed the Oath.
If the Department determines that there was a procedural error, I will be
notified of that fact as well, and we will take corrective action at that time.
The fees that you paid in connection with your renunciation are established by
the Code of Federal Regulation, and they are posted in our office in public
view. The collected fees have been properly recorded, receipted, and
deposited.
The Consulate Generals normal business hours are from 8:00 AM until 4:00 PM,
and we did schedule your visit to our office at 2:00 PM which is during our
hours of operation.
I do appreciate your concern, and I hope that this message addresses your
questions.
Very sincerely,
Kirk G. Smith
Consul
U.S. Consulate General Jerusalem
In accordance with the provisions of E.O. 12958, this e-mail is unclassified.
Privacy/PII
This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
Privacy/PII
This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
3) January 14, 2013: From Zernik to
US Consulate
From: Joseph Zernik, PhD [mailto:123456xyz@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 8:23 PM
To: Smith, Kirk G
Subject: Fwd: URGENT: Response within 2 business days is kindly
requested; Request for confirmation of the assignment of Mr Kirk G Smith
Dear Mr Smith:
Your help in this additional matter would also be appreciated.
Truly,
Joseph Zernik
4) January
14, 2013: From Zernik to US Consulate
Date: Mon,
14 Jan 2013 20:14:03 +0200
To: RatneyMA@state.gov
From: “Joseph Zernik, PhD” <123456xyz@gmail.com>
Subject: URGENT: Response within 2 business days is kindly requested; Request
for confirmation of the assignment of Mr Kirk G Smith
Michael Alan Ratney
Consul General of the United States
Jerusalem
URGENT: Response within 2 business days is kindly requested.
RE: Request for confirmation of the nature of the assignment of Mr Kirk G Smith
Dear Mr Ratney:
Following my experience today at the Jerusalem Consulate of the United States,
and the communication below, I tried to ascertain the nature of Mr Kirk G Smith
appointment at the Consulate General of the United States in Jerusalem, if any.
I would be grateful if you could assist me in this regard.
Truly,
Joseph Zernik
5) January
15, 2013: From Zernik to US Consulate
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:11:36 +0200
To: SmithKG@state.gov
From: “Joseph Zernik, PhD” <123456xyz@gmail.com>
Subject: URGENT: Response within 2 business days is kindly requested. RE:
January 14, 2013 Renunciation of Citizenship – request for correction of
records, alternatively – refund for inadequate services.
Cc: “Jerusalem, ACS” <JerusalemACS@state.gov>
Kirk G Smith
Consul
Chief of American Citizenship Services
US Department of States
URGENT: Response within 2 business days is kindly requested.
RE: January 14, 2013 Renunciation of Citizenship – request for correction of
records, alternatively – refund for inadequate services.
Dear Consult Smith:
Upon return home, I inspected the records, which I received today from you at
the Jerusalem Consulate.
The records, which I have been provided, appear defective on their faces, as
outlined below.
Therefore, I request that you schedule another appointment for correction of
the documents, alternatively, for refund of money that was paid for services
that were not adequately provided.
Truly,
Joseph Zernik
SEQUENCE OF EVENTS
JANUARY 14, 2013, SCHEDULED APPEARANCE BEFORE KIRK G SMITH, CONSUL OF THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, FOR RENUNCIATION OF
CITIZENSHIP:
1) As was the case last week, Kirk Smith, Consul of the United States,
scheduled to see me at 2:00pm, outside of normal operations hours. [possibly
off the consular calendar]
2) I came with all papers prepared, as I found online, since the consular staff
would not answer on my requests for information.
3) Consul Kirk G Smith administered the oath, I signed it, and he signed it
with a stamp of the consulate. However, the administration of the oath
was NOT in the presence of two witnesses, and NO attestation was provided, even
after I alerted the Consul to the issues. As indicated below, seals were no
embossed in any of the designated spaces.
a) I paid the fee of $450.00 for the Renunciation of Citizenship, for which I
hold a receipt, and then had the following forms signed:
i) Oath of Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of the United
States. Signed under oath by Joseph Zernik, subscribed and sworn/affirmed
before Kirk G Smith, Consul of the United States of America, and certified on
the back by Kirk G Smith, Consul of the United States of America,
with the Seal of the Consulate of the United States of America in Jerusalem,
Jerusalem. However, NO Seal was embossed in the designated space on the
face of the document.
ii) Statement of Understanding, signed by Joseph Zernik, attested by Kirk G
Smith, Consul of the United States of America, and certified on the back
by Kirk G Smith, Consul of the United States of America, with the Seal of
the Consulate of the United States of America in Jerusalem, Jerusalem.
However, NO Seal was embossed in the designated space on the face of the
document.
iii) Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship,
subscribed and sworn by Joseph Zernik, co-signed by Kirk G Smith, Consul of the
United States. However, NO Seal was embossed in the designated space on the
face of the document.
In Part II of the same form: Statement of Voluntary Relinquishment of US
Citizenship, subscribed and sworn by Joseph Zernik, co-signed by Kirk G Smith,
Consul of the United States. However, NO Seal was embossed in the designated
space on the face of the document.
b) The following forms, the Consul refused to have signed:
i) Witnesses’ Attestation Renunciation/Relinquishment of Citizenship
ii) Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States [This form is
prescribed by the secretary of state pursuant to Section 501 of the Act of
October 14, 1940 (54 Stat. 1171) and Section 358 of the Act of June 27, 1952
(65 Stat 272) ]
4) My United States passport was taken by the consulate staff.
5) I then explicitly asked that the documents be certified by the appropriate
member of the consulate personnel, such as clerk, or custodian of
records. However, Chief Consul Kirk Smith, who signed the documents with
no witnesses, was also the one who certified them as “True Copy of the
Original”. The sum of $150.00 was collected for the certification
service, for which I hold a receipt.
*I think you need to understand how the system works Joseph Zernik. You have taken the Oath and the Consul has signed it. However, until the State Department back in the US approves it, you will not get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. This can take months, depending on a) how quickly the embassy sends the documents to the State Department and b) how quickly they deal with your country’s renunciations. Providing it’s approved you will get the CLN (backdated to 14th January 2013) and your cancelled US passport back and can then approach the banks again.
Why your money was seized could be an entirely different matter. Have you been filing US tax returns as required? If you have an aggregate figure of over $10,000 at any time in a year then it has to be reported on a FBAR form I believe.
Please note that even if/when you get your CLN you are not exempt from US tax obligations until you have done the proper tax filings. See the IRS website:
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax
I agree, Medea, that what has happened in Joseph Zernik’s case, does not appear any different than the experiences of others seeking renunciation. We don’t have reports of people actually getting copies of what will go to Washington, DC to be approved (well, maybe there is one report of someone being able to obtain copies? but not current practice). Renunciants are usually told their paperwork will go to Washington, DC for approval, with some having been told that there should be no problem; they will be informed when their CLN is approved and they will be able to pick it up or have it mailed to them. I appears to me that if Mr. Zernik might have expected to get immediate documentation to take to his bank to open a new account, after his bank had seized his account, this change in procedure /special treatment wouldn’t be acceptable to any consulate, (i.e. no queue jumping). Procedures do differ from consulate to consulate, but not in the step of renunciations and relinquishments having to be sent to Washington, DC for approval and subsequent receipt of a Certificate of Loss of Nationality, that important documentation we will have to have for our banks in regard to FATCA if we are to prove we are not a US Person.
His Jerusalem banking experience is very unfortunate and I can understand his thinking he has been dealt with unfairly. It is also unfortunate that his accusation of fraud by the Jerusalem US Consulate might deter others from making their appointments for renunciation or relinquishment if that has been their decision.
I know one, maybe two, consulates were giving out copies of documents when I started tracking consulates in 2011. However by winter 2012, they stopped doing it. I think HQ in Washington told them to stop. The receipt for the $450 fee is usually marked something to effect of “for renunciation of citizenship,” which might provide some sort of proof whilst waiting for the CLN.
Procedures sure do vary from consulate to consulate. Nevertheless, the consulates do appear to be on the up-and-up and just approaching this as part of their job, not trying to forcibly retain citizens. I tend to think it’s not really in a consul’s own best interests to screw up on a file he sends to DC because it makes him look like a dope who doesn’t know how to do his job.
It is pretty routine to tell people that their CLN must have final approval in Washington. And it’s true — however, from what we’ve been able to determine, approval is pretty much automatic. I know that a couple of people were warned of a potential problem by the consulate at their first visit, so they could straighten it out before their second visit — like basically the consulates don’t seem to want to mess things up.
*It seems to me that his renunciation is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the seizure of his accounts. Not that I blame him, but we don’t know if this was due to FATCA or something to do with his political/social activities; they could have been seized on the authority of the Israeli government for all we know and have nothing to do with FATCA. Anyway, he’s decided to renounce and expected to immediately get all the necessary paperwork signed, he’s therefore no longer a US citizen and that the banks will now let him open accounts again. This, despite the Consul telling him at both meetings that final approval has to come from the State Department in Washington and may take some months. It is very unfortunate, but in no way is there any fraudulent activity on the part of the Consul/Embassy and to accuse them of such in writing is libel I would say.
I’m surprised that Joseph Zernik didn’t understand the due process needed to complete the renunciation. He obviously knows of this site so I would have expected him to have read other people’s accounts of what happens and how the process works. Unless he just googled to find someplace to ask/tell other people about the supposedly fraudulent activity because he didn’t the answers he wanted from the Consul/Embassy.
It will be interesting to see if he responds to our comments or if we never hear from him again.
It is understandable that he upset at the situation. Bank Hapoalim went far beyond the law in Israel or even US Fatca regulations in seizing his bank account. They were requesting wealthy Americans fill out FATCA reporting forms AND proving they have been filing US tax returns (showing their 1040’s) or threatening to close/freeze bank accounts. The bank itself is having it’s own knee jerk reaction in fear of what has been going on in Switzerland, etc., and that it now is heading to Israel, so they are going beyond normal FATCA requirements for US citizens. With regards to his incident at the consulate, I can’t see it anything other than a mistake on the part of the employee not doing the procedure. I have not seen any other reports of recent renunciations recently at the US embassy in Tel-Avi or the Jerusalem consulate, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they were a bit “rusty” in following proper procedure.
In any event, regardless, of where he does his renunciation procedure, expect there to be a delay in months before he gets his CLN. Maybe Bank Hapoalim will release his funds (despite their own procedures being ridiculous) when they see his CLN and that is why he is in a hurry to get it. But insofar as filing obligations are concerned, he’s still in the system till he signs out with his 8854–of course.
I am planning to give notice of my intent to relinquish next week at the Jerusalem Consulate, (appointment made) asking for a backdated CLN to the date I emmigrated to Israel (before 2004). I hope to let you know how it goes. Since no oath is required for that, hopefully they won’t screw it up.
@BenPloni, I’m not sure that just immigrating will be enough. What were the actual rules/laws in place in the US and Israel at the time of your immigration? I immigrated to the UK with my mother back in 1969, but that wouldn’t have been enough to lose my US citizenship. Did you take a specific oath of citizenship to Israel with the intention of relinquishing your US one? Have you travelled since on a US passport? Good luck if you do qualify as a relinquisher; it’ll certainly save you a few weeks’ waiting.
@Tom Benedict, there was no mistake on the part of the staff at the Embassy. If you read the Consul’s reply of the 15th Jan (number 2) he said quite clearly that the documents are in order and have already been passed on to Washington for final approval (pretty quick service if you ask me). He also told Joseph Zernik that it would take time for the process to be completed. That doesn’t sound to me as if they are rusty on the procedure. The mistake is on the part of Mr Zernik in thinking that he would get his CLN and be able to deal with the banks as a non-US person immediately. Why he would subsequently think that Mr. Smith was not a duly appointed Consul is known only to him.
@medea…i applied and naturalized upon arrival in israel with the intent of giving up us citizenship when i moved here over years ago. No swearing in ceremony involved. have not voted in us elections or registered kids or filed us returns since immigration. i have renewed passport but understanding that without cln would have problems at boarder. i think pacifica said it was a non issue after vancouver clarified
*Then hopefully the Israeli Embassy also knows about any clarification done at the Vancouver end. It’s a bit of a catch-22 situation. You shouldn’t use an American passport once you’ve relinquished, but it could cause problems with Border Control if you don’t if you haven’t got a CLN to show them. Crazy. Be prepared to argue the point and if you can take any evidence of what was reported for Vancouver on the matter with you. It might help because at least they could query it with someone at the State Department.
@Benploni
I don’t want to be over-confident and say it’s a non-issue. I’d rather say it shouldn’t be a issue, or more importantly not a problem.
Consulate officials, although acting in good faith (as almost without exception, they are), sometimes are unaware or mistaken about something.
The way I see it, either:
(1) Your consul is aware that your passport is not a problem, as occurred at Halifax;
(2) S/he isn’t, but you can bring up the fact that Vancouver actually got clarification from DC; or
(3) At worst, they want to check with DC themself. Vancouver had their answer by the time of the second meeting a few weeks later.
I don’t know if Jerusalem requires a second meeting, btw, for a relinquishment. They’re not supposed to. My personal feeling on that is if it’s only a few weeks later and I’m not making a major trip to get there, I’d ask them to do it in one meeting but not push the issue if they say no.
Lack of knowledge on a particular point at a consulate seems to be decreasing since we started tracking consulates a bit over a year ago, presumably because the consulates have had more and more experience dealing with a variety of cases. They didn’t do very many CLN applications prior to 2011.
The determination of loss of citizenship, as you’ve probably read, is made on the balance of probabilities.
Also, although the approval is officially done in Washington, it appears to actually be done by the consular official – which makes sense because if there are questions about it, they’re the person who can ask the applicant for more information.
I’m aware of three cases where consuls, in good faith and citing the legal reason, felt that the criteria for a backdated CLN were not met – said it was not possible in two cases and strongly recommended not proceeding in the other. I remember that in one case the person told us that he himself thought it was dicey before he went and in the other two cases, the consul did seem to have sound legal basis.
So although they tell you it must be approved in Washington, which is correct, in reality if they’re sending it on, you can be pretty certain it will be.
The consulates usually are very cooperative in wanting to have things work out best, and properly, for the client.
If, however, a consulate says you cannot apply for a backdated CLN and you believe you are entitled to one, don’t renounce right away. Get in touch with Brock. That happened to one of us (me!), who actually had a textbook-quality slam-dunk case.
Within two days (!) of notifying the proper authority of the problem, the problem was completely resolved, and I signed my CLN application 3 weeks later 🙂
@Pacifica — are you saying there are people on Brock with connections in DOS? Just curious? Or if one consulate refuses, is it realistic to try a different one? Would the second one be aware of the attempt at the first consulate? (assuming they hadn’t forwarded to Washington).
No, we don’t have any connections in the sense of “pull” with anyone at DOS. A couple of us have been in contact with them on the issues in the context of our involvement with Brock, but that’s it. We do know, or are pretty good at finding out, who people should contact there, though, for various matters.
In my earlier comment, I was trying to get across that if a person disagrees with a consulate on a serious matter and cannot get it resolved at their consulate, and they know (or believe) the consulate is not following the law, or if they are bullied or obstructed, they shouldn’t just give in. (On minor procedural stuff, though, I say don’t worry about it, go with the flow.)
So, in my earlier comment, I just wanted to point out that DOS seems to be a decent law-abiding department and if you have a bona fide complaint, man, do they take it seriously, and fast! But, no, we don’t have any “special friends” there.
I want to stress that serious problems are extremely rare. As you can see in their reports, almost everyone has found interaction with consulate staff to be pleasant and professional, even friendly and helpful.
But bad apples can and do pop up occasionally in almost every large organisation. In that case, if a person runs into a serious problem that cannot be resolved at the consulate, don’t just give in, especially if they’re showing obvious bad faith.
Re “If one consulate refuses, is it realistic to try a different one?” I can’t say for sure. It might not even be necessary. I suggest if a person has a problem, contact us with the details (either post on-line or send e-mail) and we can suggest appropriate course or courses of action specific to the situation.
In my case, I did end up going to a different consulate (felt like they represented two different countries actually). That choice would really depend on the situation. As far as I know, a record of your visit at one consulate would be visible on the database at any consulate.
I was really making a general statement about problems in my earlier comment. I don’t think you’re going to have a problem. I think, at worst, that if the Jerusalem consul is unsure about the passport matter and remains so after speaking with you, he would act in good faith and get guidance for himself from DC. If not, you could seek guidance yourself from DC, but cross such bridge if you get to it. I just meant to you (or anyone in this situation) don’t just renounce on the spot.
As far as I can tell, I don’t know much about Jerusalem, but they sound pretty typical to me, in which case they’re on-the-level to deal with.
Reporting on my visit to the US
Consulate in Toronto to renounce my citizenship. As you may recall I
immigrated to Canada in 2007 and became a Canadian citizen in November
2011.
At about 1:48PM I got off the TTC Spadina Line at the St.
Patrick station for my 2:00 PM appointment. The day before my
appointment, my wife (abbreviated to DW) and I had scoped out the stop
and surroundings, so I knew where to go and how to get there. Doing this
advance scouting turned out to be a big stress reliever. Bless my DW
for having the perspicacity to suggest checking the ‘ground truth’ on
the day before.
I emerged from the TTC station, walked west
perhaps 60 meters on Dundas, turned left on Simcoe past the Tim’s, and
went about 300 meters to the consulate entrance. I was quite surprised
to be greeted outside by what seemed to be a private security guard – I
expected a Marine.
Anyway the security guard checked my pre-printed appointment confirmation and US passport, and directed me inside.
Inside
the entrance another guard asked if I had any electronic devices.
Already knowing the drill, I had none and said ‘Nope.’ I emptied my
pockets into a standard tray, piled my coat on the top, and walked
through the metal detector. My metal belt buckle set off the detector. I
was ‘wanded’ to ensure that that was all the metal I had, which was
fine.
After gathering my belongings I was directed through a door.
The result was a little confusing. There was a large room and it took a
moment to figure it out. On the left side was a waiting area, in which
perhaps 18 people sat. A low wall divided the room, left side from right
side. Eventually I realized the room was divided into on the left
people applying for US visas, and on the right US citizens and the
service(s) they required. I walked up the right side to the end, spoke
to the security person, and was directed through another door and to
take the elevator to the third floor.
On emerging I was asked by a
gentleman behind a window (kind of like a bank of bank teller windows)
to step up. He asked why I was there, and said that I was renouncing my
US citizenship. He gathered some forms, put the into what appeared to be
a Clear-Vu type binder, gave me a slip which had a number, and asked me
to wait until my number was called. My number was prefaced with “C”
which I guessed to mean Citizen. So I entered the waiting room.
When
a number was called, an LED annunciator showed the number called along
with the window number (for example, C999 4; being Number C999, Window
4).
I waited perhaps five minutes before being called to the same
window I had gone to. The female Consular Officer (CO) asked to confirm
that I was there to renounce my citizenship. My CO then stated that this
was a very serious and a significant event (I am paraphrasing) and
wanted to ensure that I was aware of the significance of this and that I
would need to return to the consulate after considering the gravity of
my act. She then drew out a blank copy of the Determination of
Citizenship form and began describing it. I interrupted and said that,
well, I had already completed a copy and drew it out of my interview
folder.
She (admirably) quickly realized that I was prepared and
apologized for being unaware that I had completed the form. I added that
I also had completed the ‘Awareness Of The Seriousness’ and the ‘Oath
of Renunciation’ forms. I confirmed that I had signed none of the forms.
She apologized gain for being unaware that I was prepared (apparently
the gentleman who originally helped me should have asked whether I had
completed any forms), and that it appeared I had already given some
thought to what I was doing. I replied that I had considered this for
some time and added ‘Not a problem.’
She then said that if I
wished, this could be taken care of within an hour and therefore would
not need to return. I replied that yes, I would be pleased to do so. She
asked if for my complete documentation and I handed over my
Determination, Awareness, and Oath forms as well as my US and Canadian
passports. (I also had copies of my Canadian Citizenship Certificate,
Immigration Minister Kenneys’ letter, marriage certificate, birth
certificate. I decided ‘on the fly’ they were unneccessary.) She said
that there was a $450 fee and asked if I had the funds. I replied that I
did and she replied that she would alert the cashier and asked me to
wait where I was.
She returned and and said for me to go to the
cashiers’ window, which is the far right window of the bank of (I
believe) five windows. She asked for my number and I said I had given it
to the CO. The cashier was a bit flustered, walked away for moment,
and returned with a new number slip and said this one replaced the
previous slip. She stated the $450 fee and I handed over the four crisp
$100 and one $50 USD bills which my DW had gotten from our bank the
previous week. I was privately amused that the cashier held each bill up
in front of a ceiling light and carefully examined it. She then ‘rang
it up’, said that the receipt would go to the CO and asked me to return
to the waiting area.
During the about 20 minute wait, I chatted
with two people who were also renouncing, and with someone and a
companion whose US passports had been lost over the weekend. This person
was very curious yet not at all antagonistic.
When I was called
up to Window C I greeted the same CO. She returned my Canadian passport,
explained that all three forms had been copied and each form had been
‘sealed’. She also made a joke which I found amusing; I think I
chuckled. She asked me to sign and return the Determination and
Awareness Forms, which I did. She then asked me to read the Oath
document and if I then wished to proceed, to raise my right hand and
read the oath aloud. I read the form, raised my right hand, read the
oath (with a few stumbles), signed both copies, and returned them. She
explained that it would take about four months for the State Department
to return the CLN, and that I would be contacted about whether I would
like to pick it up or have it mailed. (A brief aside: I live about 3 1/2
hours away so it will be the latter). She returned the receipt for my
payment and said that I might want to make copies, since it is
heat-transferred and can quickly fade into unreadability, and to keep a
copy with my Canadian passport as proof of the transaction as well as
why I am travelling on a Canadian passport and have a US birthplace. My
‘internalized’ implication was that the receipt would minimize the
hassle of entering the States.
She then said that we were done. I
then thanked her for her professionalism and her sense of humour, both
of which made a potentially stressful situation much less so.
And I
was done. Took the elevator back to the first floor, down the corridor,
through the door and turnstile. I was in the consulate for almost
exactly an hour. It was far less stressful than I had mentally prepared
myself for (earlier in the day my DW observed that I was ‘in a mood’ for
which I was most apologetic).
I want to thank the IBS and Maple
Sandbox for providing support and resources which were an enormous help
in understanding the issues, helped me clarify and sort through my
options, and give me the courage to act. Thanks also to my DW and my
siblings in the States for being so supportive.
I do not smoke. In
recent years though I have acquired the habit of smoking a cigar to
mark momentous life events which include moving from the States,
obtaining my Canadian citizenship, my mom dying. This is certainly worth
a cigar.
Cuban, of course.
————–
The quick and dirty for the spreadsheet:
Appointment set: 2012.11
Appointment: 2013.01
2nd Appointment: N/A
Renounce: 1
Relinquish: N/A
Notes: CLN in 4-6 months.
Thanks, extex, for your detailed report of renunciation in Toronto to be added to the Consulate Report.
I’ve added your experience to the Toronto portion of the database at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/. Congratulations for having completed your renunciation appointment — enjoy the CUBAN cigar to celebrate another life event.
Maybe Medea Fleecestealer did not read carefully the facts. The issue is NOT the CLN. I never expected to get it on the spot.
The issue is that the Oath of Renunciation was administered with no witnesses, and therefore, no witnesses signed the Witnesses’ Attestation.
Sending deliberately invalid oath records to the State Department will NEVER get a CLN in return.
calgary411
I never expected to get immediate CLN.
IS THERE ANYBODY HERE WHO HAD AN OATH OF RENUNCIATION ADMINISTERED WITH NO WITNESSES, WITH NO WITNESSES’ ATTESTATION COMPLETED, AND HAD CLN ISSUES?
I DOUBT IT!
*Joseph Zernik, on the Renunciation Questionnaire, where it asks “Do you wish to swear or to affirm to your renunciation“, I marked “affirm“. I was then asked to raise my hand and repeat what I was told. There were no witnesses other than the guy who did the renunciation for me. Two months later, I got the CLN. So, I would think that you should be ok. No witnesses are required for a renunciation. If you like, I could email you the instructions that I got which you could compare with your own.
@Joseph Zernik, I don’t think you need witnesses. I have my documents to be filled in ready for my renunciation, which were sent to me by the Embassy here in Bern, and nowhere do I have any place where a witness needs to sign the documents. All documents are signed by the Consul. There is no need for a witness as far as I can see. Extex’s summary of his recent visit doesn’t mention any witnesses. The forms are the same no matter where you live so I wouldn’t think they’d be different just for Israel. Where did you download the documents from?
Has anyone else seen a Witnesses’ Attestation Renunciation/Relinquishment of Citizenship form? Is this something you only get when you arrive at the Embassy? The http://www.renunciationguide.com site doesn’t mention it either. Is this for renunciations done in the US only?
*Joseph Zernik, banks in Switzerland informed me that a former US citizen may only open an account with them once the former American can show a CLN. It would thus seem to me that Bank HaPoalim and Bank Leumi are still refusing to open an account for you since you do not yet have a CLN. Unfortunately, a receipt of renunciation is not enough. Only a CLN is enough to prove to banks that one has been liberated.