If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@maz57,
I wonder if they would answer a query asking if what they are saying is ‘I should contact Calgary?’
Ah, temptation.
I e-mailedVancouver 3 weeks ago and heard back within an hour.
I asked how to book a renunciation appointment, as their booking system showed them booked through June 2013 with no vacant appointments after that date. They replied within a hour that they had no appointments available at this time, just keep checking their website.
So, it looks like they only ignore e-mails of a substantive nature or which seek to actually accomplish something.
Unless they modify things, I would be leery of going there, even if I could get an appointment in June – as it’s taking some Brockers over a year to then get their second appointment, etc.
For the record, I’m not really looking for an appointment atVancouver . I was just pretending for research purposes. Quite seriously, their appointment schedule looked bizarre (still does), and as we had heard that some procedural changes were being made around that time, I was wondering if perhaps this unavailablity of appointments on-line might have been becauseVancouver had switched to booking using another method.
@Pacifica, this admission is worthy of a separate post. I.e., the consulates are backlogged and not serving those who wish to relinquish their citizenship. The United States is waging a financial war on Canada by attacking the tax base through its US “citizens” and then they are slow to respond to those who want to tell the Americans to stick their citizenship where the sun don’t shine. This is a scandal.
*@Petros, I wouldn’t be at all surprized if arrangements are quietly made to make it almost impossible to renounce anywhere!! It would indeed be a scandal. Stealth.
@Petros, just out of curiosity, how do your family in the US feel about your renunciation? Are they shocked and appalled or have they been understanding? I would imagine that many US families would be supportive while many wouldn’t. Fortunately for me, my parents surprisingly understand things a lot better now so am leaning towards renouncing too! I agree it’s looking more like an act of self-defence.
@monalisa,
Re
You’ve come a long way, baby. I know it has been hard to get to what you are thinking now compared to so long ago. It is great that your parents seem to understand things a lot better. It is encouraging that you now realize you are in an abusive relationship with the US, which seems to be the reason we are divorcing — for getting on with our lives. We have better use of our time than this insanity.
I salute you!
@ Mona Lisa,
My parents thought that relinquishing myUS citizenship to become a citizen of Canada was the right thing to do, as I lived here and would live the rest of my life here. They always felt strongly that people who immigrate to the US permanently should become US citizens and only US citizens, no divided loyalties. So, they were fine with it.
I’m really glad that your parents are understanding your situation. I’ve been concerned because I know you’ve been quite torn for a long time about what is the best choice to make, and being torn indefinitely is really difficult psychologically. I’m still disturbed that you are faced with this choice in the first place, because as you say it’s like self-defence. It’s really like theUS is forcing people into it. It does not seem fair for a country to allow dual citizenship but suddenly make it very close to impossible to live with that option.
This whole thing is so much turmoil, so I think your family understanding must help a lot as you deal with it. I’m really glad to hear this because long-term unresolved stress is an awful way to live and probably takes years off one’s life.
*Re Baird’s brother’s experience in Halifax
“The consul apologized to for the “inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour” of the U.S. border officer in Shannon. He said that the possession of a U.S. passport was evidence of his participation in being American. Therefore it would be necessary to pay $450 even though, in my brother’s case, it clearly showed he relinquished his U.S. citizenship when he became a Canadian citizen in December 1968. That being said, the papers were accepted at the first meeting and he was called by the consulate to pick up his CLN less than two months later! The CLN states he relinquished his U.S. citizenship on the date he became a Canadian citizen. “
I wonder if this is another indication that, if the consular officer recommends that an application for relinquishment be accepted, the application is also approved by Washington. Would this same scenario presented in Vancouver for instance, have resulted in a backdated CLN?
@ Calgary, Pacifica, Petros, Monalisa. I admit to being conflicted over how to proceed with the next stage of my journey to freedom. The practical side of me says “book an appointment in Calgary, fly over there and get the job done”. The obstreperous side says “no, insist that Vancouver do their job, or if they refuse, at least expose them for the obstructionist, inefficient bureaucracy they apparently are”.
One thing that really annoys me is the fact that in my initial email to them I clearly indicated that my situation is an intentional relinquishment and I was simply informing them I was no longer a US citizen and requested instructions on how to return the passport. In their reply they turned that into a renunciation and stated that two appointments would be necessary. Elsewhere on IBS I remember someone contacting the woman who is the US Consul General for Canada and getting some positive response. I’m leaning towards that strategy and can always keep Calgary for “backup”.
It’s going to very interesting when I attempt to enter the US for the first time on a Canadian passport. It would be a major mistake on my part to allow them to force me to use my US passport. I know I am no longer a US citizen as of the day I became a Canadian. As required I am making a good faith effort to inform the US State Department of my relinquishment and to return that unwanted (and effectively invalid) US passport. I’m keeping a record of all email correspondence. I also am looking into going before a notary and making a sworn statement of fact . In my mind there are only two options: either allow me to enter as a Canadian or turn me back.
@maz57,
Re
Keep a very good record of each of your steps in this process and (if) any issue of crossing into the US with your Canadian passport. I find it so very interesting the experience of baird68’s brother in Halifax (a renunciation required as baird68’s brother was forced or intimidated (like I was) into obtaining a US passport and then the Halifax Consulate wisely and humanely dating his CLN December 1968, when he obtained Canadian citizenship). You now have this experience to cite regarding your own relinquishment. If you will be crossing the border with a Canadian passport before your successful relinquishment, the fact is you took Canadian citizenship with the intent to relinquish your US citizenship and you have no control over obstruction from the Vancouver Consulate in getting a timely appointment. You, very wisely, will not cross with a US passport and waive all rights to the delayed reporting of your relinquishment to the Vanvouver Consulate.
Thanks so much for your views and reporting your experience here. I think your experience will be of great importance to highlight what is occurring, the lack of a standard of procedure and some consistency from one consulate to another, whether it be in Canada or, for that matter, anywhere in the world. We have made our informed decisions to renounce or relinquish and get on with our lives. We deserve respect in our right to do so and should not face undue obstruction.
FYI, below was the start of our conversation with the Consul General for Canada, Sylvia D. Johnson, who had the courtesy and respect to communicate with me from the Ottawa Embassy. We understand there will be meetings in January regarding the processes for relinquishment and renunciation taking place in Canadian consulates and the Ottawa Embassy.
Ms. Johnson intervened in Cir’s relinquishment and his appointment was moved up. For the others here it has been ‘wait and watch’ rather than intervention to see if the process in Vancouver was indeed changing. As reported here, by many – including you, the process has not changed for the Vancouver Consulate, which is not acceptable to us. Can we do anything about it? That remains to be seen, but we have been fortunate in having Sylvia D. Johnson communicate with us on this important issue. We are grateful for her respect and her help.
Re: How homelanders feel about a person who renounces. Print off some blank 8938s, 3520s, FBARs, take your pick. Ask them to imagine being required to fill them out, or worse yet, pay someone big bucks to do it for you. Every year for rest of your life. All resulting in little or no tax due.
Print out the instructions for these forms as well so they can get a feel for the confusing IRS speak and the threats of massive penalties for any sort of error. Then it starts to dawn on them what’s going on and what the problem is. Point out that common tax advantaged investments are forbidden if you don’t live in the US.
Any reasonable person starts to get it immediately; any unreasonable person is well, unreasonable, and probably will never get it.
@ maz57
You should also point out to the doubting homelanders that any error or innocent omission on these forms can leave you vulnerable to penalties which can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. Nobody wants to walk on glass penalty shards for the rest of their lives. And as a side note, each time you enter the IRS site your IP address will be recorded so you cannot even download forms with any assurance of anonymity. Curious about what a 3520 is? Don’t look because it could incriminate you. And to top off what might seem like paranoia but it isn’t, IF you are unable find a reputable, fully informed tax consultant then it is up to you to familiarize yourself with the 70,000 pages of US tax code because you never know where a line or paragraph might be hidden which pertains to you. Good luck finding that line or paragraph in the first place and good luck understanding what it means in the second place. And as long as I’m on a rant, you can also tell the doubting homelanders that phoning the IRS to ask a question is pretty much impossible from outside the USA. If you do manage to get a person on the end of the line the usual response is that your question is beyond their mandate to answer and you must ask that tax consultant you were unable to find.
@maz57,
‘the obstreperous side says no,insist that Vancouver do their job…. or expose them’. Being caught up in the Vancouver quagmire, I hear you loud and clear.
Perhaps I am naive, but I do hope that the New Year might either bring some concrete changes to procedures in Vancouver, or perhaps some new consular staff to deal with things here. Or worse case scenario, we might have word from Sylvia Johnson that the best thing to do, to get the service we need, is to attend an appointment at a consulate in another Canadian city.
*monalisa1776,
Well, in my case, they didn’t quite support it, but kind of understood it, maybe, when I explained it. It’s rather difficult for stateside Americans to understand the matter since it doesn’t apply to them. Yet, all-in-all, it doesn’t really matter what anyone thinks. What counts the most is that one supports the decision that one made and can live with the consequences of it.
*@hijacked2012
I absolutely believe that the consular officer determines whether or not the application for relinquishment be accepted by Washington. My brother was assured by the consul that a copy of his application would be all he needed to cross the border until his CLN arrived. While the $450 was used to process the paperwork (probably to remove the passport from the system) he was assured by the consul that he was relinquishing, not renouncing since he became a Canadian citizen in 1968. I the application was quickly approved by Washington. Unfortunately, there seems to be inconsistencies and/or biases by some consuls. Hence the extended periods of time to get the job done. – Just my observation.
*For the past month I’ve been singing “All I want for Christmas is my CLN” and at last this skeptic is a believer. Yes, Virginia, there is an out-basket at the Vancouver Consulate. Finally, today I have my CLN in hand! Timeline: First meeting in March, 2012; Second meeting mid July, 2012; Received CLN Dec. 18, 2012 – nine months from start to finish. Dates on CLN read: Renunciation Date July 16, 2012; Approved November 27, 2012; and it was mailed on December 17, 2012.
When I saw the receipt of two CLNs from Vancouver Consulate reported on IBS last month I thought surely mine was in that batch because my final appointment had been in their time range. No luck. Then when Just a Canadian and Arrow’s wife both received their CLNs last week I had great hope as they both had second appointment dates after mine. And yes! It finally did happen.
A hint for those waiting for CLNs from Vancouver: When CLNs first trickled in from there, it occurred to me that the Vancouver Consulate’s unique requirement for renunciants/relinquishers to provide a prepaid Xpresspost envelope to send their CLNs in and the fact that we were given the receipt slip for that envelope, means we actually have a tracking number on that slip that we can use to see if our documents have been sent yet. I started checking it last week and finally yesterday it began a tracking history with “Item accepted at the Post Office in Vancouver” so if you think your delivery should be imminent here’s the link: http://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/default.jsf?LOCALE=en
Thanks, once again, to all of you at IBS and Maple Sandbox who have provided so much support, both moral and educational, to those of us who have felt overwhelmed by this bewildering quagmire we’ve been caught in. I won’t list names here because I would surely miss a few, but I want you to know that the sharing of information, generosity of spirit and willingness to consider various viewpoints has been an encouragement to me and, I know, to others. I am not much of a “blog follower” but keeping up with the latest daily comments here has helped keep me focused. I’m also not much of a “blog contributor” and have seldom commented. However, please know that I do continue to send letters and emails to government officials and try to spread the word to others. I firmly believe that there are likely many others who are not keen to comment online but who are inspired by what they read here to do what they can when they see an opportunity to do so.
To all of you, who are still feeling stuck in this bureaucratic briar patch, don’t lose hope. I’m one of many who are living proof that if you just keep moving one step at a time, finally it’ll all be done and you’ll be left with a great feeling of freedom and sense of accomplishment. I wish you happy holidays and a new year that brings an end to
the complications we’ve all been struggling to sort out. As for me, Mr. Ladybug is taking me out for a celebration dinner tonight. We’ll raise a glass to all of you kindred spirits.
Cheers, Mr. and Mrs. Ladybug.
Mrs. Ladybug, our congratulations and thanks for all your have contributed here!! You were the one with info from long ago that gave us hope.
I’m glad Santa was early with your Christmas wish. Happy Celebration tonight and the best for the Canadian New Year!
Super news, Ladybug! What a great way to start the Christmas season! Thanks for the tip about tracking the Xpresspost and for the detailed reports you provided on your consulate visits.
And thanks so much to you and Mr. Ladybug for sharing that letter Mr. Ladybug received some 30+ years ago from the US government. It corroborated my belief that I had indeed relinquished my citizenship in the 1970s — a year ago, when you posted it, a lot of people still thought we relinquishers were imagining that we’d relinquished our citizenship, the US government was not forthcoming with requests for clarification on this, and at least one consulate was providing diametrically incorrect information. That letter was such a boost to my spirits at a dark time.
I’m really happy that you now have your CLN! And great too that you’re continuing to helping others!
Your HAPPY is our HAPPY. Congratulations, Ladybug! 🙂 Tracking the Xpresspost envelope is an excellent suggestion for anxious CLN awaiters. A screenshot of my I-407 application (sent registered mail) arriving at USCIS is so far the only proof I have that I actually did turn in my green card (albeit 15 years after the actual abandonment). You have to do whatever you can to document things — like asking for a receipt for that $450 renunciation.
@Ladybug,
Congratulations. Always good to hear of the receipt of another long-awaited CLN. Makes me even happier to know it came out of Vancouver. They might move at a snail’s pace, but they do move.
Great news, Ladybug. Lots of early Christmas presents this year. Maybe it’s time to start thinking about a CLN party, possibly in the spring. Isn’t there a little park next to the Vancouver consulate?*
*Thanks to all for the congratulatory notes – and, Arrow, if there’s a party in the park or elsewhere, I’m in if I can make it. Would love to meet some of you face to face. Is this a B.Y.O.CLN party? Or maybe a receipt for $450 would do. Actually, I think the party has begun for us. Hope we have many more to join us soon. 🙂
Congratulations to all who’ve received the highly-coveted CLNs. I just received my CLN out of Vancouver, too. The notice from Canada Post was in my mailbox yesterday and I picked up the letter today.
Here are the stats: Second renunciation date – Sept 2012; approved by the Dept of State November 27, 2012; CLN arrived Dec 18, 2012.
In the package were the CLN; the Statement of Understanding (4081); my statement why I was renouncing; a photocopy of my US passport; photocopy of my birth certificate; photocopy of my CDN citizen letter with the certificate number on it; a photocopy of my CDN certificate of citizenship; a photocopy of my CDN passport; and my cancelled US passport. Oh, they also included instructions for the 8854 as well as the 8854 form.
They didn’t include a copy of the DS 4079 which I had to complete, but did not sign and never saw after my first appt. I chose to include a statement, but it didn’t contain anything that wasn’t already on the DS 4079. If you recall, many of those questions come with the command, “Please explain.”
Although I feel very relieved and have no regrets at all, I feel sad looking at those documents again. The emotions I felt that day just come flooding back. However, the US of my childhood is not the US of today. There are many practical reasons why I would never return to live in the US, all of which have nothing to do with the IRS. I’ve lived more of my life in Canada than in the US and consider myself more CDN than American. I love Canada and feel very, very fortunate to live in this beautiful and wonderful country. I can’t imagine living anywhere else.
I think the tipping point for me, with regard to making this decision, was reading Hale Sheppard’s article on FBARs and 8938. I was amazed that article as dull as dirt (sorry, but I find legal jargon so tedious) could also be so terrifying. I thought, “I can’t live the rest of my life under this kind of threat and anxiety.”
As has been discussed by so many, the complexity and cost of remaining compliant has become too great to bear. I completed IRS tax returns without complaint for over three decades as an American abroad, but the 2011 OVDI was a game-changer. I paid nearly five figures just to complete “information” forms with ZERO tax owing. I know I escaped easily compared to many others. Still, that money came right out of my retirement savings. I have no company pension (which, right now, is looking like that’s in my favour as I won’t have to deal with that on the 8854).
It seems that I and a few others entered the renunciation process in Vancouver at just the right window of time; I didn’t have to wait to long for the first appt, waited only 2 weeks for the second appt, and miracle of miracles received the CLN in three months time. I also found everyone I encountered at the Vancouver Consulate kind and helpful.
I really feel for those who are stuck in the current quagmire and forced to wait months and months to exit the system. It’s just so stressful for people! And I fear it will get worse at other Consulates, too, as more people are hit with reality and flood the Consulates with requests for appts for the purpose of renouncing.
Thank you to all at IBS who’ve been such a wonderful resource of information and encouragement. I really appreciate it! This place really helped me feel like I was not alone, or losing my mind, or over-exaggerating the situation.
Arrow, a CLN party in the spring or summer sounds like a great idea! And Tiger, I hope you hear good news from the Consulate, soon, and have your second appt early in the New Year!
Thanks again, everyone!!
@ SadCnd
That’s great news. Congratulations! May we assume the next time you post a comment you will be HappyCnd? (Just kidding.) 🙂
And from another thread (Relinquishment and Renunciation Data) comes more great news. John Smith got his CLN too. Terrific! There’s no doubt Vancouver has more than a quorum now for that summer party. 🙂
@SadCdn,
Congratulations. Vancouver seems to be in the news these days – lots finally getting their CLNs from this consulate. I am still waiting as are many others for the 2nd appointment. Sure hope that Ms. Johnson will come through in the New Year.
Dear
SadHAPPY Cdn,I assume Em is right and we can now call you HappyCdn! Congratulations. I have finishefd your line for your experience start to finish at the Vancouver Conslate. I am so glad that both you and John Smith made it through the maze before the delays now being experienced. Thanks for the good words for this site and for adding your experience to help the cause — we’re glad that Isaac Brock helped you; it certainly helped me and I know many others get to where we are.