If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@tiger;
Posting your experience will probably help others who may face the same problem (although that may be of small, or no comfort). There are sure to be others whose US birth certificates are from a similar time period (or older) and who might choose to get another version in order to head off any similar challenge to their original original stamped and officially sealed version.
Sorry that you had to be the one to encounter this, but thanks for providing your solution.
Thought I should update regarding the “Pending” required documents. Yesterday I received the 4th birth certificate (with filing date and parents’ names) by UPS. So now I have both of the certificates (birth and marriage) that the consulate said they would require. My instructions were to scan the documents and send them in to the consulate and request my second appointment at that time. I did that last night and quickly received an “AutoReply” email, telling me that all inquiries (other than emergencies) will be answered in the order received.
So the waiting game continues.
Thanks for the update, tiger. I’m glad you have all in the hands of the Vancouver Consulate now.
Just want to note for anyone considering Calgary, unlike the Vancouver Consulate, every one of my emails was responded to almost immediately, the latest:
From: Calgary_ACS
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:01 AM
To: calgary411
Subject: RE: RENUNCIATION APPOINTMENT CONFIRMED
Received in good order and added to your file. Thank you.
Privacy/PII
This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
From: calgary411
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 4:16 PM
To: Calgary_ACS
Subject: Re: RENUNCIATION APPOINTMENT CONFIRMED
Attached is the questionnaire you have asked me to return in preparation for my November 14, 2012 renunciation of US citizenship appointment.
Thanks very much.
calgary411
From: Calgary_ACS
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 10:52 AM
To: calgary411
Subject: RENUNCIATION APPOINTMENT CONFIRMED
Dear calgary411:
Your appointment is confirmed for Wednesday, November 14th @ 2:30.
Please complete the attached questionnaire and e-mail, or fax it to 403-263-2241, prior to your appointment.
You should bring the following items to your appointment:
– Evidence of your United States Citizenship. This must be presented at the time of your interview.
– Any U.S. passports (valid or expired),
– If applicable, your Consular Report of Birth Abroad, Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization.
– You should also provide evidence of your Canadian citizenship to show that you will not become stateless by renouncing your citizenship.
– Due to a recent policy change made by the Department of State, the $450 fee for Renunciation of citizenship is now required at the time of your interview. We can accept US/CDN cash, credit card or U.S. dollar money order, payable to the U.S. Consulate, Calgary. We do not accept checks or debit cards.
– As an option, you may also wish to provide a written statement regarding your reason for renouncing your citizenship.
Please visit our website to review security information before visiting our office.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/consulates/security.html
Thank you.
I called Bern on Friday and was scheduled an appointment for Tuesday due to a cancellation. I emailed in the questionnaire early Monday morning and got the dollars from my bank. At the embassy everyone was friendly and formal. I made an address correction on one of the forms and the whole thing was done in about an hour. I gave no reason for my decision and was not asked. While waiting, I listened to a possible Arab talking about his high educational qualifications, a young girl who needed change, and I attempted to help a Swiss-American who’s bank account was being cancelled. He wanted to open up an account with another bank, but they were requesting a social security number which he didn’t have, which is why he came to the embassy. He had never filed any tax returns, didn’t know anything about FBAR and was told that it would take months for him to get a social security number. At the end, I was told that my documents were being sent to the Department of State for approval. Outside, people were wondering how long they had to wait to get a visa.
@SwissPinoy: Congratulations on your decision to expatriate and your good fortune to get an appointment so quickly. Based on your input, it confirms that Bern is processing renunciations with one appointment, a process that other US embassies and consulates should emulate.
Would you be willing to take a question? Based on what you saw and possibly other indicators regarding your appointment, could you venture an educated guess on how many renunciation appointments the Bern embassy had today or during the same one-hour time slot?
Thanks for any additional feedback. Again, congratulations on this difficult decision!
Congratulations, Swiss Pinoy, good news to hear things moved so quickly and went smoothly … I’m happy to know that now you can have a bank account, mortgage and normal everyday stuff! It’s not that bad here (yet?), that must be a terrific sense of relief.
Thanks for your report! I’ll add it to the directory.
*Congratulation’s Swiss Pinoy, What wonderful news!! So happy for you, I am sure it is a great relief.. Isn’t it a shame it had to come to this.. But we are all going to be better off for sure..
Great news SwissPinoy! Sounds like Bern is a lot like Toronto – no hassle. I remember feeling worried that I would regret what I did or that I would feel depressed about it but I focused on the peace of mind and the fact that I could finally sleep at night. As Pacifica mentions, we are not experiencing cancellations of bank accounts and mortgages; a much heavier load to carry.
You got in early due to a cancellation – do you have any info as to the truth (or not) that it is taking a year or more to get appts in Switzerland?
Again, CONGRATULATIONS!
@NobleDreamer,
Swiss Pinoy will surely know more about the Bern situation and I look forward to SP’s reply to your question. Meanwhile, I know that in the past couple of months, we had one Brocker get an appointment within 3 weeks and another Brocker within 1 month. One of them had also heard that it would take over a year, so they were really happy. I read earlier this year that Bern had switched from two visits to one. I also heard that they’d assigned extra staff (2 or 3 people) to deal with this as well (can’t recall the source right now though, so better not trust me a hundred percent on that :) ).
As for long delays, someone posted elsewhere on the internet that Halifax had a 5 year delay! Luckily that was wrong — it was about 1 month. The only place I know of where it takes a year or more to renounce/relinquish is Ottawa.
@NobleDreamer, pacifica777 summed up what I was told in August. So far, I haven’t had any luck on finding statistics on dual citizens in Switzerland.
@Pacifica
Re Ottawa, is that just the experience of the one person (I remember someone posted that but my memory is getting very “senior”) or are there more that have been told a year? I can’t seem to get my son to get moving on this and he almost certainly will do it via Toronto once he hears this.
@SwissPinoy, I spent some time trying to find statistics as well and came up with basically zilch.
According to the attached “Tribune” newsletter from the Basel Chamber of Commerce, an attorney in Switzerland advised his client to “lose” his Swiss passport after renouncing his US citizenship so that the US authorities, which had copied it at his renunciation appointment, could not trace him.
“His attorney explained to him upon returning to Switzerland (ed.: he renounced in the Czech Republic) that his Swiss passport had been copied so that he could be identified by the USA as an ex-American if necessary. Such an identification could be however avoided, if he were to “lose” his passport, as soon as he received confirmation that his renunciation of US citizenship had been definitively accepted. Then he could have another (Swiss) passport issued with a new number.” (top of p.7)
http://www.hkbb.ch/wAssets-de/docs/TRIB-2012-08-10-tribune-Magazin.pdf
“Zuhause erklärte ihm sein Anwalt, sein Schweizer Pass sei kopiert worden, damit er, falls nötig, für die USA auch als Ex-Amerikaner wieder greifbar sei. Solches lasse sich aber vermeiden, wenn er den Pass «verliere», sobald er die Bestätigung erhalten habe, dass seine US-Bürgerschaft definitiv erloschen sei. Dann könne er sich einen neuen mit einer andern Nummer ausstellen lassen.”
@Noble Dreamer, That’s the most recent person, who reported in September. Earlier this year we got a few reports thatOttawa was running at 8-9 months. Given the lengthening of delays due to increased volume of expatriations in the past year, an increase at Ottawa from 8 months to 13 months seems to be part of a trend – eg in about a year, Calgary has gone from 1 month to 3 months, Toronto from 2 weeks to 6 weeks for relinquishment (no renounce data from there lately, but it would take an extra visit, unless they switch to one visit as Calgary and several others are doing.)
@Pacifica, thanks, that is good to know. After Schubert’s reports, I haven’t been at all keen for my son to do it in Ottawa.
@Innocente, initially what you wrote makes sense but I have a question. Would it really make that much difference, having only a different passport number? They would already know the person had been a USC and that a Swiss passport was held. Even the replacement passport would expire at some point and a new number would be given. I guess the question is, what info is on a Swiss passport? I also am not clear about what has been related somewhere on the site, that the birthplace is not what is shown. I always assumed the people being discussed were born in Switzerland. What if a dual Swiss was born in the US? What birthplace would be given? And why would one worry about being identified or tracked later as a previous USC? Hint: I don’t want something new to worry about, lol
I am quite certain they photocopied my CDN passport when I submitted my paperwork.
@nobledreamer:
Passport number: there may be some validity to obtaining a different passport number to make it difficult for the USG to cross-reference you to your ex-USC status. The driver for the person in “Tribune” article to renounce his USC was that he was a bank employee in CH and sensed he was being discriminated against by his colleagues due to his dual citizenship status. Getting a new passport number would make it more difficult for the USG to track him. Another thought I had about this recommendation was that his attorney was trying to justify his fees and so made this recommendation as a “value-add”, i.e., it could be over the top.
Swiss passport: In CH a naturalized citizen is a citizen of: a. the community where s/she naturalized; b. the canton of naturalization; and the country. In addition to the citizen’s photo and name, the Swiss passport lists the following identifying characteristics: birthdate, height, weight and “place of origin”. Place of origin is the community where the naturalized citizen was naturalized. The Swiss passport does not list place of birth. Attached link shows the current Swiss passport:
http://www.atelierpfund.ch/de/arp/atelier-roger-pfund/sichere-dokumente/pass.html
– the “Place of Origin” on the sample Swiss passport is “Rothenbach bei Herzogenbuchsee BE”
Possibly a way to avoid having the USG track you through your non-US passport after renunciation would be to present the US embassy with a certificate of naturalization rather than a passport.
@swisspinoy I hope you told the dual at the embassy who was told that it would take months to get a social security number about IBS. It would be interesting to see what happens next with him, if he is still able to to open an account in the interim.
Again, if I were him, I would insist that the bank open the account immediately as a Swiss citizen and if the bank refuses, go straight to the police station to make a deposition and complaint against the bank for constitutional and criminal violations.
*Jeff, I thought about that, but I was standing under the camera and I didn’t want for Canadians to become involved or blamed for the Swiss talk of two Swiss individuals in Switzerland. 🙂 IBS would have been overwhelming for him because his English was very basic. So, left him my contact information with the promise that I would send links to the things that I spoke about, if he was interested.
My experience is that your identification works off of your finger prints. When you get your US passport they get your fingerprint. After you renounce when you travel to the US you have to give your fingerprint at the border to immigration. Presto, US citizen X becomes ex-US citizen X from country Y. What I am not sure of is the degree of precision. If your name and fingerprint don’t match with 100% certainty I think they ask you trick questions the first time you enter the US after your renunciation to confirm the high probability hit for their electronic records.
@ConfedH:
Finger or thumbprints are not currently required to obtain a US passport per this link:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6183539_fingerprint-requirements-usa-passports.html
US Homeland Security pressed for this requirement in 2005 but apparently was unsuccessful:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/01/13/us_passports_should_have_fingerprints_ridge_says/?camp=pm
@Innocente
Thank you for posting that link with the passport. So there is no way for the US to know from a Swiss passport, the place of birth. I have read here that the US will not accept passports without a birthplace so it would be interesting to hear how the US explains letting Swiss citizens into the US. When I renounced, I was asked to bring both my CDN passport as well as my certificate of naturalization.
I bet Roger and geez will get a kick out if this (from the second link you just posted):
“The US government began fingerprinting and photographing visitors from other
counties — including staunch allies — after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror
attacks. Most nations cautiously supported the added scrutiny, but Brazil last
year retaliated by fingerprinting and photographing arriving Americans, delaying
their travel for hours”.
Wonder how another nation could retaliate regarding FATCA?
Interesting show last night on PBS refuting standard forensic techniques, esp fingerprinting. The video doesn’t seem to be available but the transcript is:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/forensics-on-trial.html
“MARK ACREE: We always assumed that fingerprints are unique. But what the Mayfield case demonstrates is that parts of a fingerprint can be so similar, it’s possible for two different people to be identified to one latent print.”
Nobody crossing the border between Ontario and Michigan by car has been photographed and fingerprinted. Is this something happening only at airports?
*
@ all
Well I relinquished in Calgary earlier this week and it seemed to go reasonably well.
After being escorted in the elevator from the lobby by a security guard you go through security screening exactly as you do in an airport. You are then taken to a rather large waiting room with a lot of chairs and a full size American flag at the front. There was only one other couple there at the same time I was. You are called to a window and asked for your documents which are copied. I was only asked for:
These were taken away and copied and I was told to sit down and wait. After about 20 minutes I was called to another window in an open cubicle to speak to the consular officer. He was very formal and serious, did not introduce himself at all, but neither was he in any way unpleasant. He was behind a glass window and documents were slid back and forth through a slot at the bottom. At times I found it a little difficult to hear what he was saying through the glass and there was really no privacy from the waiting room.
He essentially only asked two questions:
He had read over the Form 4079 (which was sent in by my lawyer ahead of time) and asked one question about a minor point. I had to read and sign the form regarding consequences of losing US citizenship. I regret not having the presence of mind to ask why I had to do this as I lost citizenship many years ago, but I was way too stressed to be arguing and I don’t think it would have done any good anyway.
He told me the decision would be made in Washington and that it would be several months before (and if) I received the CLN. Considering all the different procedures at the different consulates I wonder about this. You would think if the powers that be in Washington were making the final decision, the paperwork required would be a lot more consistent.
@tiger
The stamped seal on my birth certificate is almost illegible. This didn’t seemed to be an issue although I was worried about it, given your experience in Vancouver. I wasn’t asked for my marriage certificate at all in contrast to all the problems you had with yours.
I’m glad the appointment is over, but I can’t say I will be relieved until and if the CLN is in hand.
The appointment took about 45 minutes. For this we drove 9 hours to Calgary and 9 hours back, spent two nights in a motel because the appointment was mid afternoon and we wouldn’t have been able to get there (or home) without spending a night somewhere, and spent $23 to park in downtown Calgary. To let the American government know that a 65 year old woman gave up citizenship 45 years ago. Guess I should just be happy there was no fee to relinquish.
As an aside, there was a couple at the consulate at the same time I was who were renouncing. I had a brief (and very quiet) conversation with the husband who said that they had lived in Canada for 40 years, had spent $2000 to have their taxes done and were not at all happy to be handing over $900 to renounce. One interesting thing was that he said that this was their second visit and that they had been told on the first visit to come back in three months. He didn’t say why and I didn’t have a chance to ask.
Congratulations, Hijacked! Having had this disorienting citizenship-shock happen after 45 years of normal life, it sure must feel great to have taken care of the business of getting your real life back!
And thanks for your report! I’ll update the directory this evening or tomorrow. Would you like your entire post in the directory, or just the first section the “@all” part?
I wouldn’t be concerned about signing the statement of consequences. It kinda doesn’t make sense since you’ve been living with those “consequences” most of your life, but it is standard procedure to have the person sign it even with relinquishment, and it does say “renounce/relinquish” on it.
Interesting point you bring up about the consular officer saying thatWashington makes the decision. Your point about if the decision was completely done in Washington , one would think there’d be more consistency in the process makes sense. I think, too, that Washington generally accepts the consular official’s decision, unless something’s weird about it. My theory is that if there are any questions about an application, the local consular official is really the person in a position to ask the applicant for clarification, as you mention you were asked about something on your 4079. It seems that if there is problem, that a case isn’t clear-cut, the consular official tells the person, as that has happened to two or three people who reported to Brock.
Interesting that another couple Hijacked talked with was required 2 appointments in Calgary for a renunciation.
… and Congratulations, hijacked2012! (and for info on 2 appts required for couple there at the same time you were).
*@Pacifica
Thanks! Include anything in the consular report that you think appropriate.
@Hijacked
So glad you are all done now. And so sorry to hear about how much effort it required to get there. Welcome to the club of free at last, free at last, free at last!