929 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 1 of 2”

1. @schubert, I believe it was this: http://www.doingbusinessacrossborders.com/current-relinquishment-cases-canada-demonstrate-guidance/ and see the other related articles on the same page (center list). ….’Current Relinquishment Cases in Canada Demonstrate the Need for Guidance’
   August 16, 2012 Stephen Flott

   “Flott & Co.’s recent experience in assisting two former US citizens seeking formal documentation of their prior loss of US citizenship underscores the need for expanded guidance on the relinquishment of US citizenship in the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual (Volume 7 – Consular Affairs) (“FAM”).

   In cases that appear to have been the first of their kind at US consulates in two major Canadian cities, Flott & Co. clients met
   confusion and inconsistency firsthand.”….

   …..”When we approached the two consulates about relinquishment, both reacted
   as if the clients were intent on renouncing their US citizenship. One required documentation to be submitted in advance. The other would not accept anything prior to an interview. Both consulates were quite familiar with renunciation because the procedure is outlined in detail in the FAM. However, both were quite unsure how to deal with these
   relinquishment requests and handled them quite differently.”….

   …..”The dramatically different handling of these cases at major US consulates in a single country persuaded Flott & Co. to approach the
   Department of State to suggest that enhanced guidance on relinquishment is needed to avoid such inconsistencies and uncertainties in process
   and procedure.”……….

2. @ Schubert and Tiger.  Been a long day, so just a quick post.  This past year has been my first interaction with or even knowledge of how the US government works in 40 years, which was pretty minimal … in (my crash course) the past year I have definitely been getting the impression that civil servants in the US have a lot more leeway to make up their own rules than civil servants do in our country.  

3. @Badger, Good link to bring up. I read that, too.  I know the two consulates he’s referring to.  I was tempted to comment, well, they don’t only handle it differently from each other, one of them handles it differently from any consulate that we’ve heard about in the whole world.

   And he’s right.  There should be uniform guidance sent out to the consulates on how deal with relinquishment.  It’s a very important matter, especially to the aprx 117,000 of us US-born Canadians who relinquished our citizenship in the days before we’d even heard of CLNs.

4. @pacifica, glad he’s notified the State dept. – and has said they’re looking into it. Only afraid that they’ll decide to make it more onerous, rather than just more consistent. Similar to how the IRS clarifications only make things more complex and more punitive.

5. @Badger

   Thanks for posting that link. I do remember reading that and feeling some ‘alarm’ when I read it. I then put it out of my mind because I really felt I had a slam dunk case and that I had all my ducks in a row. Guess again! I would love to know which consulates that Stephen Flott is referring to and also is the State Department listening to his suggestions and do they plan on doing anything about it.

6. @Badger.  That crossed my mind, too.  “Be careful what you wish for …”  (Overall, though, State seems to be a pretty reasonable department — of course, we tend to compare it to IRS, which isn’t saying much).  I have been in contact with State on this matter, though, which gave me the sense that it is not State’s policy to cause problems for relinquishers so I tend to be hopeful.  But of course, the US has changed so much, not simply in 40 years but like in the last 10, that who knows what things will be like even 5 years from now, even dealing with a currently reasonable department like State?

7. @tiger and @pacifica; I’m only hoping that increased scrutiny and public criticism will help us by shining a bigger brighter light on how things are being done. It won’t help everyone, but it may be that the wider exposure, the more careful they’ll be about some of the more egregious practices. And, as the numbers continue to rise, at some point that will bring critical scrutiny too. I have to believe that already, some of the publicity is starting to change tone – like that USAToday and ABC story.

8. I do wish that Canada’s federal government would make some sort of public statement about urging the US to refrain from impeding Canadians who want to relinquish or renounce unwanted dual US status. After all, it is Canadian citizens who are being prevented from choosing to be ONLY Canadian – which you would think Harper et al. would be fully in favour of. Now is the time to help their own citizens. They can’t tell the US what to do in the USA, but they can certainly intervene to help Canadians on Canadian soil. How about ‘let my people go’?

9. *As you can read in my Consulate report on renunciation at Marseille Consulate I actually wrote to the State Dept. as I was concerned with the inconsistant manner with which the Consulate was handling my case right from the beginning. Mainly not following procedures as outlined by the State Dept. In my case it worked out well and the Consulate changed their attitude. If you’re uncomfortable with reporting Vancouver’s problems you could do so anonomously or those of you who have already received your CLN’s could write and complain about the inconsistencies. I believe it is unacceptable for each Consulate to do what they want, especially asking for documents (such as birth certificates and/or SSN – I didn’t have to produce either of these!). 

10. *PS: I contacted and complained to the State Dept. through their website simply by sending an email. Nothing more formal than that.

11. I posted this once before in response to Johnnb successfully obtaining a CLN for a relinquishment.

    I met with an immigration lawyer in September of last year. Prior to my meeting, the lawyer had checked with the Halifax consulate about relinquishment and was told “we don’t do relinquishments here” The lawyer told the Consulate that they had to do relinquishments and if they didn’t know the procedure, he would teach them.

    I don’t know if they are any stats on relinquishments out there, but it would be interesting to learn if there were very many requests for CLN’s based on relinquishing before last Fall.

12. @Hazy2.  

    I don’t know, but I would doubt there were many relinquishments before 2011 because although it seems that over 100,000 US-borns believe they relinquished (based on StatCan 2006 census), it seems almost no one had a CLN, or knew about them, until recently.

    I recall that Petros has written that when he went to notify Toronto of his relinquishment in April 2011, even Mrs. A (who apparently really knew her stuff) wasn’t sure about relinquishment taking two visits (which, of course, is a quite different than saying “we don’t do relinquishments here”) and had to consult with a vice consul, who fortunately did handle it swiftly in one meeting.  Good thing Petros knew, same as your friend’s lawyer at Halifax.  Certainly during the past year both those consulates have been processing relinquishments properly.  But my guess is that very few Canadians applied for CLNs before 2011 because we didn’t know we needed one or that they even existed.

    If anyone can find any stats, I too would be really interested to see them.

    I remember reading your earlier post and thinking that’s one good lawyer. Not many know about this area of law, but worse, of those that do know about expatriating not all are clear on relinquishment as opposed to renunciation — though that’s probably been changing in the past year too. Sounds like this lawyer knew the score and did a good job that many people, not only his client, are benefitting from. That’s downright creepy “We don’t do relinquishments here.”

13. *I came up with this joke headline:

    US Tax Policies Open A Whole CANada of WORMs* for US Consulates

    *the WithOut Recourse Majority of expatriates.

    But seriously, it seems that US consulates in Canada will have to deal with tens or hundreds of thousands of requests for CLNs in the next few years unless US policies change, and the consulates simply aren’t equipped to handle applications in such numbers. Something’s gotta give. What will it be?

14. @Badger Thanks for finding that link, I’ve bookmarked now so I can find it again if need be.  I share your nervousness about “be careful what you wish for.”  It’s a trade-off between having something predictable and not having nasty surprises sprung during the interview, versus having a standard procedure that is draconian.  Obviously we all what a relinquishment process like those of Calgary, Toronto and Halifax and not like what the Ottawa embassy and Vancouver consulate have been playing at.  One reason why many people I know have been eager to go forward with their renunciations or relinquishments now, if they haven’t already, rather than wait and find out the rules have changed and have become more onerous after the election or some other tipping point.  Given the US track record so far on this and related matters, it’s hard to have confidence it will get better in the future. 

    @Pacifica.  Absolutely right about no one knowing about CLNs and formal relinquishment before 2011.  I didn’t know about it in 1976 until I got my relinquishment CLN in the mail, and I doubt many others had ever heard of it back then.  There wasn’t an Internet back then, and who had access to US law in Canada without paying lots of money for a lawyer to look into something no one even knew about?  And how many Canadian lawyers would have know about this, and who would go back to the US to sort this out even if you weren’t facing an arrest warrant on draft charges once you set foot on US soil?  I’m lucky they dealt with my case by mail; no way would I have set foot inside any US embassy or consulate until after the amnesty in 1977.

15. @Schubert. I had that same thought when I read Mr. Flott’s advocating for specific guidelines, be careful what you wish for.

    So far, though, State seems to be on the level — but we do hear of ignorant (in the sense of not knowing what to do) or, worse, allegedly obstructionist or rogue consulate/s.  Very few, but they can mess up someone’s life.  Particularly in the case of relinquishment, which is not forward looking, as is renunciation, improper behaviour by a consulate can turns one’s normal life into a retroactive mess.

    So, if guidelines were created simply to codify the proper procedure as it exists now, I think that would be beneficial.  But, yes, what if they decide to make new policy making it more onerous?  It’s possible.

    My 2c is if you’ve already relinquished, notify them now.  Don’t expect it to get better.  I can’t predict the future, but it sure seems that the US does seem to be trying to prevent expatriation more and more in recent years, and they seem to have a penchant for retroactivity.

    And particularly with this “negative-option marketing” equivalent of applying 21^st century law to 20^th century relinquishers bugs me – the most sensible procedure after the 1990 onus reversal would have been to have it apply from 1990 forward, not backwards too.  

    One more thing I like about Canada, we don’t have this penchant for retroactive law that crops up with alarming regularity in US law on these matters.

16. *One way the US could lessen the burden on its consulates and on those of us born in the US who no longer are or want to be US citizens would be to change the default option:  Get rid of the whole CLN concept, and require all US expatriates who DO want to remain US citizens to maintain valid US passports while living abroad.  That way they could track their citizens, report them to the IRS, and so on, without bothering and having to deal with the rest of us.

    Whether they would still tax their citizens who live abroad is an entirely separate issue.

    US citizens abroad who subsequently decided to give up their citizenship could simply return their US passports, along with proof of citizenship elsewhere.

17. According to this site, another proposition affecting US passports is about to rear up again after defeat: https://nestmann.com/feds-we-no-longer-need-your-circumcision-records-to-renew-your-passport/

    ……..”The State Department’s “revised” Form DS-5513
    has been renamed ” Supplemental Questionnaire to Determine Entitlement
    for a U.S. Passport.” It no longer requires you to list the details of
    your circumcision or the religious ceremonies that accompanied it.
    However, it still requests other details noted above, including a
    complete list of the individuals in the room in which you were born.

    Form DS-5520,
    in contrast, is entitled “Supplemental Questionnaire to Determine
    Identity for a U.S. Passport.” The questions on this form are somewhat
    less invasive, but according to the instructions for either form,
    “Failure to provide the information requested may result in processing
    delays or the denial of your U.S. passport application.””…….

    ……….”This time around, the State Department won’t say who would be
    required to complete the form. Apparently, any passport examiner could
    decide your appearance, religion, political affiliation, or any other
    factor or factors requires you to complete the form. In making that
    decision, the examiner in effect would veto your right to travel
    internationally.

    Naturally, under what I call the “surveillance creep” principle, that
    once Form DS-5513 receives final approval, its use will be greatly
    expanded.  Form DS-5513 is a wakeup call for any U.S. citizen applying
    or renewing their passport.  It’s an unmistakable indication that in the
    future, it could be much more difficult to qualify for a U.S.
    passport.  And without a passport, of course, you have no way to travel
    internationally.”……..

18. @All,

    Good news/maybe bad news re the ‘required’ documents. Very impressed with the company VitalChek that I dealt with to order my birth certificate and civil marriage certificate that the Vancouver consulate insists I need. Good news – UPS delivered the package this afternoon. Now that is fast, since I only sent the information to VitalChek on the weekend, they verified my ID documents and sent the request on to Cook County.

    One of the things the consulate here states is that it requires that the birth certificate must show the filing date (it does) and the parents’ names (it does not!). Cook County sent an accompanying letter with information re the birth certificate. Apparently, they have only the ‘short form’ birth certificate and they gave me the information on how to order the ‘long form’ birth certificate directly from the Illinois Department of Public Health. So more money and more forms and more faxing of ID. Frustrating as hell but I think I am dealing with a bureaucracy that probably won’t budge.

    I think that DOS really needs to put out some proper guidelines to ALL of its’ consulates to be used for all cases of reporting a prior relinquishment.

19. Good to know tiger, thanks for sharing – I’m sure that there are others who can benefit from knowing their options. Sad that it has delayed you, but it looks as if you’re back on track as soon as you get the ‘long form’. Still so ironic that they are so concerned with you proving your US birth and identity so that you can prove you lost it.

20. @Badger

    The irony sure doesn’t escape me and I have to ask myself why am I spending money to prove to them that I was born an American just so I can now prove to them, that I relinquished that citizenship 40 years ago. I feel a bit like Alice and I have fallen through a hole.

    Of course, when I read the forms that you posted about earlier today, I think they are in this hole too, but it ain’t Wonderland. I love the expression ‘surveillance creep’ – it speaks volumes.

21. @tiger, all the chicken entrails and other signs seem to predict that the US is going insane, and that those who don’t want to live inside it need to try and sever the abusive relationship as soon as possible. I feel attacked by the US on multiple fronts – intrusive forms and mandatory passports we’re forced to use in order to visit our US family, behaviour at consulates and embassies, draconian fines and confiscatory taxes and asset penalties and labyrinth reporting quicksand, verbal abuse and insults in the press from Shulman and Geithner. A US ambassador to Canada who cares nothing for the wellbeing of those deemed US citizens here. Our children being claimed and shackled because we can’t renounce for them, and made to register for the draft – or else. We’re stuck in a George Orwell novel.

22. *Oh my gosh, what a stupid form. I doubt anyone could fill in all those questions.  I certainly couldn’t.  Nor can I see how it would aid the passport application process in any way whatsoever.  As I’ve been out of the States for most of my life the details I give would mean absolutely nothing to the authorities so what use is that?  Are they really going to be picky and go ringing up the BBC in London to check that I actually worked there when I said I did?

    And going in the opposite direction, does the fact that I have been out of the States for most of my life mean I’d be unlikely to be successful in renewing my passport, even though I’m a staunch American for instance?  Not true, but I can see this being used in that sort of context. 

    Think I’d put “I plead the 5th” against all the questions and see what they make of that. After all only a “true” American citizen would know what that means (wink).

23. What a weird exercise. Even if someone managed to track down the name of an obstetrician who delivered a baby in Boston in 1932 (frex.), he’s obviously been dead for decades. His last known phone number would look something like ‘Purple Christmas 9-8973’. Who thinks this stuff up?

    Also, who gets confirmed at birth? It would seem to miss the point.

24. *Exactly.  And I know one of my schools has closed down so what good it that?  All the places I’ve lived?  Does that include a friend of my mom’s who kindly let me stay with them for a month when I was looking for work in LA.  Hell, I can’t remember her name now and even if I could, she’d be long dead.  As is the teacher I learned shorthand/typing from in the UK and I couldn’t provide the address for where she taught from either now; it’s all too long ago.

    If they’re trying to assess your ties to the US this seems to be taking it to the extreme!

25. Actually I do know my mother’s employer at the time of my birth, but it’s a company that’s long since disappeared. I could go through old phone directories (the central Toronto library has a set) and find out what their phone number was in the mid-1960s, but why?

    Also, who in their right minds would swear under penalty of perjury to the correctness of a list of names of people at a religious ceremony that they themselves attended as an infant?

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