929 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 1 of 2”

1. @ Tiger 5.32. Vancouver is asking stuff the other consulates aren’t, such as SIN number, which is not required on the required Dept of State forms (forms 4079-4083).  Last US address is on the Oath of Renunciation, nowhere else; I’m not aware of other consulates asking it relinquishment (there’s nowhere for them to put it).  Dates you lived in US of course is on the 4079, so they’re not making that one up.

   Even though it’s on the renunciation form, I’m not sure that last US address is of any use at all in many cases, eg. accidental American who never lived in the US at all, Cdns born in the nearest hospital which happened to be in the US, people who moved from the US as infants, or really any address that’s decades old.

   A bit off topic, but FWIW, I just realised I’ve lived in my current apartment longer than I’ve lived in the entire United States.

2. @Tiger The marriage certificate my wife presented is a civil not church certificate (the marriage was before a JP) so the church-vs-state issue never came up.  However it boggles my mind that they wouldn’t accept a church-issued certificate.  This is about tracking legal name changes to show that you’re the person named on the birth certificate; it’s not about the marriage per se. 

   The business about which copy of your birth certificate “works” is just mind-numbing.  The clerk or consular is simply being stupid or stubborn or both.  If possible, I suggest getting a letter from someone on official State of Illinois stationery stating what your brother found out about what they do and don’t issue, and shove that under their noses along with your 1993 certified copy.  Or if they say that on a website, just print the d*** web page showing the URL so the moron at the consulate can check it out on the computer if they don’t believe the print-out.  Or better yet go to Calgary or Toronto if you can, I’ve yet to hear of this kind of anal-retentive bureaucratic nonsense from either of those consulates.  (Ottawa embassy is another story; maybe the person in Vancouver has been taking lessons from them.)

   I’m sure you don’t want to go to the expense and bother of a lawyer, but boy this would be a prime case for unleashing a pit-bill lawyer on them.  Just a fantasy, though; it would be faster and cheaper to go to Calgary, even with the air fare and an overnight hotel stay.  Even Toronto would probably be cheaper and faster than fighting Vancouver with a lawyer.  And so far both Calgary and Toronto are being faster and more sensible about scheduling interviews than Vancouver.

   If you do go to Calgary or Toronto, I’m sure there are people in both cities who you know through this website and who would like to meet you and/or provide moral support, if you’d be traveling alone.

3. Further to Pacifica’s comment; in her Toronto relinquishment appointment my wife was never asked for her Social Security Number (unlike me, she still has hers; I burned mine with my draft card when I became a Canadian, but I was never asked for that either back in 1976).  Nor was she ever asked for her last address in the US.  The Vancouver consulate, or at least some of their staff, seem to be off in their own sick world on this.  Asking for two appointments for a relinquishment as another example of their “exceptionalism.”  No one else on the planet is asking for that, as far as I know. Except the Ottawa embassy … I guess that’s what happens when the US ambassador to Ottawa is a Chicago Democrat ward-heeler whose only qualifications seem to be he’s a buddy of Obama; he’s not a career diplomat, like the Consul General in Toronto. I wonder what Vancouver’s excuse is …

4. @Schubert,

   Thanks for your quick reply. I am certainly going to think about Calgary or Toronto as possibilities. One possible problem is trying to get the file moved from Vancouver to wherever. I know it has been done by another on this site, but I would have to come up with a clear cut, acceptable reason that would not annoy the Consul here to the point of making things more difficult for me. If they got vindictive, my life could become more of a ‘living hell’ than it is right now.

   First thing I need to do is get the required documents. Hopefully, that ball will start rolling within the next few days and I hope it will not take too long to get the records.

   One of my sons has also suggested I go the lawyer route. It is the costs of a lawyer that would be the stumbling block.

5. @Schubert

   I think I might have said this in a post from yesterday, but I have become a cynic. I used to be considered naive. I am really, really suspicious about what might be going on in Vancouver. I know that in the Private Sector, a manager can set the tone for an office. In a school, the principal sets the tone for the whole school. I am suspicious of what the attitude of Vancouver’s Consul General is about this whole mess. I believe the Consul General here is a woman and I can not help but wonder if she believes any of us who expatriated in the past, are just a bunch of whining, treasonous, tax dodgers. If that is the attitude, it would filter down to the Clerks and  the consuls we meet with at our appointments. I hope I am wrong about all this because if it is the case, it sickens me. Like it sickens me that individuals are treated like dirt at the Ottawa embassy. Shame on all of them.

6. @Tiger, @Schubert,

   I’d love to meet you and make your Calgary stay a bit easier, Tiger, from picking you up at he airport, putting you up in our humble home and dropping you off or accompanying you to the Calgary Consulate. If that’s what you decide, say the word.

7. @calgary,

   Thanks for the kind offer. As I mentioned in a post to Schubert above, I will do my best to apply for the required certificates this next week. Once I have them or know they are on the way, I will have to make the decision on either leaving my file in Vancouver or perhaps getting it moved to Calgary. If Vancouver delays making that final appointment, I believe that would give me a very good reason to have it transferred. Particularly, if Calgary is moving quicker on everything.

   I would love to meet you also and it sure would be nice to have someone attend the meeting with me.

8. @ Tiger,

   I am horrified by your experience and can’t believe they would be so incredibly picky  and insensitive. I wondered why there was nothing posted on the day you were to have gone (and I didn’t think to check the other site).

   I just hope you can get the certificates as quickly as possible and wrap this up so no more agony. Do I remember correctly that for a long time, you had considered not coming forward? Regardless, you are very brave and don’t let them get to you. In the end, you will get that CLN and be free, once and for all.

    

    

9. *The Toronto Consulate asked me for my SSN number when I relinquished.  It was not a requirement to provide my US social security number when I obtained my last passport in 1986, but I know that it became a requirement after that.  My friend, who relinquished in Toronto and holds a valid US passport, was not asked for his SSN.  It seems to me that they are asking for it if they do not have it on file.    

10. In Toronto, I was also asked for my SSN when I applied to relinquish. I told them I had applied for one but had yet to receive it.

11. I’m probably overthinking this, but I wonder if making renunciants fill out the DS4079 (which isn’t really necessary), recording the last address in the US, date of departure and so on isn’t aimed at doing some demographic analysis of people asking for CLNs.

    Sooner or later, perhaps after the election, the State Department is going to have to release some real statistics on relinquishers and renunciants. The number will be surprisingly high, so there will have to be some talking points to explain it. One fairly effective one would be to point out a high number of people with a limited connection to the US – people who never lived there, haven’t lived there for decades and so forth.

12. @Tiger,

    I doubt I would be allowed to attend the meeting with you, but I could sure go as far into the building as they would allow. My husband and I have renunciation appointments on the same afternoon in November, but at different times. I believe I have read that lawyers cannot accompany anyone, nor represent someone in their absence. Maybe someone could tell of experiences with having someone accompany? It may be somwething we have to do all by ourselves.

    (As I understand it, if my son were to go in to a Consulate to renounce, I don’t believe I could accompany him and he would have to swear that his most serious decision was not influenced by anyone. He couldn’t swear that even if he did understand what was going on, the concept of citizenship and the consequences of retaining or renouncing such citizenship — his lack of being able to understand is the reason I am not allowed to renounce on his behalf, which it would essentially be me doing if he were the one in the room renouncing, which isn’t allowed. It’s called nobody wins, least of all him, in his case. To even allow him to renounce, he would have to be somehow registered as a US citizen and have a social security number, which he doesn’t, as I never did any of that on his behalf — has he never had ANY benefit of such a citizenship either that he can prove or renounce.)

13. @Nobledreamer,

    Thank you for your words of encouragement. Yes, you remembered correctly – it took me at least 8 months to get the courage up to come forward to apply for my ‘back-dated’ CLN.

    I think what I find most frustrating in this whole process is that back in 1970-71, I was eager and ready to become a Canadian citizen. It was my Canadian-born husband, who insisted I ‘pause and reflect’, call the Consulate etc,; pause and reflect some more when they told me it would be ‘permanent and irrevocable’. He wanted me to be so sure because his love of Canada was so great, he knew he would never be able to ‘relinquish’ his citizenship. So for the clerk to tell me that all U.S. consulates require 2 appointments (when all of us here know that is NOT TRUE), is frustrating beyond belief.

14. @ Calgary,

    I am quite sure consulates would not allow anyone to accompany. I believe that Arrow was allowed in to the Vancouver consulate with his wife and perhaps was Schubert allowed in to the Toronto consulate with his wife. I think I read some where that it was possible to be accompanied if you were ‘old and frail’. Well, as this process continues, I am certainly getting older and probably frailer!

    I have been in contact with Cook County Vital Records. They use an outside service called “VitalChek”. So I am presently ‘on hold’, hoping to soon speak to a live person. Will report if there is an update.

15. On hold — don’t hang up and lose you place in that queque! Good luck with finding the path, at further cost to you, to obtaining what is “needed”, making some progress this morning, tiger!

16. Tiger —
    I did accompany my wife both times — but during the two interviews with the vice consul I was asked to step aside. One of his/her jobs is to ensure their has been no coercion. It’s all done very politely. I stepped far enough away that I couldn’t be seen, but stayed close enough that I could hear the exchange.

    I think if you want to bring a relative to Session #2, they won’t bar the door. You should be allowed to have legal counsel with you, including during the interview (that of course will cost megabucks) — not sure about that.

    I also think, if you believe you are being treated unfairly, there is always an option of asking to speak with a supervisor. I’m not entirely sure about that, but it’s worth a try.

    Finally — think it through before you decide on a venue change.  You have every right to do that, but you should carefully weigh the pros and cons before you do it. The two cons are, in my view, 1) the possibility that a change would slow the process down rather than  speed it up, and 2) it could raise suspicion among consular folks that maybe your application needs more careful scrutiny. It’s one of those “out of the frying pan, into the fire” scenarios that always lurks in any dealing with a bureaucrat anywhere.

    Be strong. You’ll make it work.

    *

17. @Tiger.  For clarification: I did not accompany my wife in the Toronto consulate, as it was my understanding that I wouldn’t be allowed in anyway.  She went in alone, but I accompanied her to the front door and was waiting for her in a Tim Horton’s about two blocks up the street when she came out.  My understanding is that in most consulates you can’t bring anyone with you to these interviews, unless your English is so poor you need an interpreter.  Not sure how many people going forward for a CLN are likely to be in that sitaution …  Everyone I know who has asked if they can bring a lawyer has been told a resounding NO, and most lawyers seem to be aware of this.

    One way to view this is their attempt to ensure you aren’t being coerced into asking for a CLN. Another way is that it is a further way of intimidating you, so you’re on your own during the interview and also so you won’t have any witnesses if the consular officer becomes abusive (as happened in at least one interview at the embassy in Ottawa, according to my discussion with the victim afterwards).

    Pick your favourite interpretation of why they do this …

18. @tiger,

    do you think it at all possible the clerk has no idea of the difference between a renunciation and a relinquishment? It would not surprise me (and I don’t say that in a mean way). What is so incredible about all of it, is that they US had no paperwork involved in something as serious as “permanent and irrevocable” If so, one would think a documented process was a necessity. Keep chugging, it will be over soon and you will be sooooo glad!

    I think the first time I went to the consulate, I was at the cashier window and there were 2 men at the 2nd window. One was quite angry and was upset that he could not bring his lawyer (the other fellow) in.

    @a broken man

    Belated congrats! So happy for you!

19. @Nobledreamer,

    I was not kidding when I said I believed that I was this clerk’s first ‘account’ re CLNs. She did circle “Relinquishment” on the form she returned to me, not “Renunciation”. And when I pointed out to her that I had done my reflecting 40 years ago, she smiled and sort of nodded. But made no further comment, except when I asked her if anyone took the time to read the Statements brought in. At that point she initially shook her head no and then when my jaw dropped, she said ‘well, what I mean, is it will not make any difference in the final decision made in Washington, DC”. At that point, I gave up as I was so distressed.

20. *@tiger

    I can only reiterate what everyone else has said.  I’m just so aghast and angry at the treatment you received.    You have the original birth certificate, albeit faded, and a certified copy of the original and that’s not good enough?  My birth certificate is also from Cook county and shows wear and tear as anything does after 60 plus years.  I have a relinquishment appointment in Calgary in a couple of weeks and  I’m seriously considering canceling and taking the ostrich route.  My case is not as straightforward as yours is (or should be!) although I do have the signed oath of allegiance have never voted, had an American passport etc. etc.

    @baird and others

    Am I understanding that you are required to produce a SSN on the relinquishment procedure?  I’ve never had one and can’t imagine going down that road.

21. *You do not need a SSN to relinquish.

22. @Hijacked2012,

    I hope that my experience at Vancouver will not dissuade you from your appointment in Calgary. I truly believe the Vancouver consulate is a terrible place to go and something could be going on there that is not going on at the other consulates. Everyone who has gone to Calgary has been impressed with their treatment.

    Regarding the Cook County birth certificate, the clerk, who was most definitely brand new on the job, felt the filing date was blurred and my Dad’s middle name was blurred. I agreed that you could not read my father’s middle name, but everyone else has been able to read the filing date. I suspect that Calgary (and perhaps Vancouver, if I had a different clerk) will not be so picky. Like many people new to a job, she could have been being ‘extra careful’.

    I have finally reached Cook County Clerk office and have ordered a new certified birth certificate and a civil marriage certificate. I am unsure how long it will take but at least the process is started.

    Regarding the SSN, if you get asked for it, just say you never had one. In my case, she asked for it; I said I did not know if I had ever had one and if I did, since more than 50 years had elapsed since I left the U.S., I certainly did not know the number. She was satisfied with that and in fact said “Yes, so many people are coming in after years out of the country and don’t know their SSN numbers”.

    She did ask me the last place I lived in the U.S. – I did have the address (I think it is permanently embedded in my brain). She then had me write down the dates on the DS-4079 – at the bottom of Question 5 “Dates and Countries of Residence Outside the United States”. I had not filled that in, prior to the meeting, but did fill it at the meeting with the clerk. I believe other consulates have not addressed that question if you are there to relinquish.

    Hijacked, I am sure that all will go well for you in Calgary. I regret not making my appointment with the Calgary consulate or the Toronto consulate as both sound effecient and respectful. I know your appointment is in a couple of weeks and I am sure it will go well and that you will come out of the appointment with a load off your shoulders.

23. @several re SSN and last address of US residence among other things

    First off, my wife was never asked either of those questions during her relinquishment interview in Toronto (where the vice-consuls actually seem to know what they’re doing and aren’t wet-behind-the-ears newbies).

    Second, I’m going to suggest playing the bureaucrats’ own game.  (I was a federal Canadian bureaucrat with several decades of experience dealing in that particular milieu, before I retired.)  The forms for relinquishment are Forms 4079 and 4081.  Period, that’s it, that’s all.  If they don’t ask for it on the form, they shouldn’t be asking for it verbally or anywhere elese.  If it isn’t on the form or something you attach to the form (like an affidavit), it can’t legally be relevant to the determination of the validity of your relinquishment claim.  Or, in more colloquial language, “go fish” (when playing with children) or “f**k off” (when playing with adults).  (No, I’m not suggesting your actually say those things, but you get the message even if they don’t.)  If in doubt about this, speak to a knowledgeable lawyer before going in, or if you get into a urinating contest over this with some newbie, ask to speak with their supervisor.

    Bureaucrats don’t have the authority to make up rules as they go along, and they don’t have the authority to invent or modify official forms as they go along.  Not in any Western democracy I’ve ever heard of, anyway.  It’s called Rule of Law. Stand your ground, be polite and calm, but don’t give in. 

    If the SSN number or your last US address becomes an official and legal requirement, it will appear in a revised Form 4079 some day.  Until then, they’re making this up and they don’t have that authority at that level in their food chain. And making up rules that don’t legally exist, or doing things you aren’t allowed to do, at least in labour relations terms and I think in all other legal areas, is called “abuse of authority” and it can be a disciplinary matter or even a firing offense depending on the severity and context.

    At least that’s this retired bureaucrat’s reading of the situation. I’m not a lawyer, but I’d be quite surprised if a court or a lawyer would argue with me on this one. (I was also a union steward and national director for a time of one of our public service unions, I did get into some quite complex grievance and labour adjudication disputes, and that forms a big part of my experience and advice here even if it doesn’t qualify me as a lawyer …)  If it ain’t on the form, and it ain’t in the manual, and it ain’t in the legislation, then it ain’t legal and you cain’t do it, not in any US or Canadian bureaucracy anyway.

    Low-conflict route for decades-ago relinquishers — just say you don’t remember your SSN, if you even had one, and you don’t remember your last US address if it was so long ago (if that’s true; I sure don’t remember my addresses when I was at university shortly before coming to Canada).  They can’t deny you a CLN because you didn’t give them those pieces of info, especially as they aren’t mentioned on Form 4079.  See above …

    BTW Form 4079 only asks you for what countries you’ve lived in outside the US.  It doesn’t even ask for town or street, just country and years.  And it doesn’t mention US addresses. Other than your current street address (which they’ll get anyway off your driver’s license), your street addresses in the past are none of their damned business.

    One reason I steer people away from the embassy in Ottawa, and now would also try to steer people away from Vancouver’s consulate, is because any government office that has loose cannons making up stuff like this that no one else does and that has no foundation in any law, regulation, or form that I’ve seen, is not an office I’d want me or any friend or family member to have anything to do with.  And there is no requirement that you go to the consulate nearest you, you can go to any of them in Canada, I have a copy of a letter from Mr. Betancourt in Washington to someone here in Ottawa which says that in plain English on State Department stationery. And I know people who have been told this by consular officers in Toronto and even (probably under duress and probably after having strips torn off her by someone up the food chain) by one in the embassy in Ottawa.

24. @Schubert

    The information sheet that the clerk gave to me specifically has Vancouver-US Consulate across the top of the page. It has my name under that along with the date of my meeting. Under that it has two words: RENUNCIATION  –  RELINQUISHMENT – she circled Relinquishment.

    It then has “Original Documents are Required” followed by the standard list of documents. She checked off those she had seen and accepted, and put “never issued one” next to those documents I did not have ie U.S. Passport, Nexus Card etc. She highlighted and wrote “Pending” after the “U.S. Birth Certificte with filing date and parents’ name” and “Civil Marriage Certificate with filing date”.

    At the very bottom of the page there is an additional paragraph added: Please provide the following information: This is where they ask for the SSN (she wrote number not known next to that), Last address in the U.S.

    I suspect that this document, that someone in the Vancouver office has designed and they are using it for all renunciations and relinquishments.

    I am hopeful that the required documents will be on the way from Cook County soon. Once I receive them, I will need to make a decision on whether to proceed in Vancouver or try Calgary or Toronto.

25. @Tiger.  Interesting.  I’m not necessarily suggesting you pursue this, but if Vancouver is producing this list and other consulates aren’t, that does raise some interesting and serious questions about who has authority to require what, and how can different consulates be making different requirements.  I believe I saw something on this website a while ago by or about a US lawyer who has formally raised this issue with the State Department in Washington, as a result of various clients running into totally different CLN “requirements” and experiences in different places.  This is what one expects from a banana republic, not a G8 country, but that’s another rant. …  And its a rant against them, not you 😎

     

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