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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@Calgary,
Regarding the birth certificate, they say both parents names must be clear and the filing date must be clear and the certificate must not be a photocopy.
Regarding the marriage certificate, they want the Civil Document held by the State. My brother did tell me that when he was filing for his divorce, they would not accept his Church marriage certificate – he had to produce the Civil document.
Hopefully, I can reach someone in Cook County Vital Records this week and start the process. At least find out what they will accept to prove my identity as the website only seems to list U.S. ID. What narcissism!!!
I must say that if I thought on my feet and had not been so very upset when at their office, I wish I had said to the Consul – well, if you won’t accept the birth certificate, I guess I just never was an American and therefore I can stop worrying.
And since one of the requirements of being considered “An Accidental American” is that the U.S. parent was MARRIED to the other parent, I guess the fact they did not accept my marriage certificate, my three sons are bastards and therefore can not be Americans.
I think the four of us could all be winners here!
*Tiger, I just cannot understand why they wouldn’t accept your birth certificate as you presented it. What possible reason could they think you would have for providing a fake? After all, you aren’t asking to be recognized as a US citizen in order to obtain a passport or something; you are asking them to document your relinquishment of US citizenship.
I agree with calgary411. I wish someone at the consulate could be made to explain what they or the IRS would have to do to “prove” that they had any claim on you. As you’ve described it, their attitude is perfect example of how insane this whole business is.
Anyway, they are having the effect of making us all more and more eager and happy to be recognized as ex US citizens.
Best of luck!
and, @calgary, re ” I wish you could leave it to the Consulate or the IRS or whoever to prove that you are a US citizen if they haven’t accepted the proof you offer. Just what would happen if that ball was in their court?” That is a very astute question, and I wonder if the sheer numbers and existence of so many thousands of Canadians who performed the relinquishing act so long ago, – under the US created laws of that time, pose exactly that real challenge to the US – if an individual, with the help of a committed Canadian MP and lawyer were able and willing to take that up. It may be that the US is afraid of precedent – that if one succeeds in shifting the onus onto the US (where it may very well actually legally reside – they changed their own well established law – and cannot reasonably expect to enforce it retroactively many decades later), many others will naturally follow. Unfortunately, the cost – in uncertainty, stress, and possibly professional fees (unless someone, or an organization were to take it on pro bono) will assist the US in continuing to arrogantly, unethically, and unjustly burden Canadian citizens. Understandably, no-one wants to be a test case. We all just want to be able to live normal lives again – too much of our time and health and money have already been utterly wasted through this US insanity.
Tiger I’m so sorry for the delay the consulate created. How did you ever manage to understand what they were saying to you as they delivered that bad news while speaking with their heads up their own you-know-whats? But hang in there, that CLN WILL be in your hand one day and it WILL be back dated. You are Canadian by clear intent and this country is privileged to have you as a citizen.
@tiger, it may be that it has gone beyond what the MP can afford not to respond to. It is very embarrassing if a Canadian MP cannot stir themselves to assist a Canadian citizen on sovereign Canadian soil – particularly as your case directly hinges on the your Canadian citizenship and the oath of allegiance you swore in all sincerity and with full intent. As Saxton is a Conservative http://www.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/ProfileMP.aspx?Key=170162&Language=E, perhaps the letter cc’d to Minister Flaherty? I also think that the NDP caucus in BC might be interested – they have been very firm on where they stand on this situation, and it is time for some follow up to their communications with Minister Flaherty and Baird http://peterjulian.ndp.ca/post/news-ndps-bc-caucus-pushes-for-government-action-on-irs http://www.libbydavies.ca/parliament/openletter/2011/10/26/letter-ministers-flaherty-and-baird-urging-them-defend-canadian-us#.UGfFbBgedKY . This goes far beyond the case of duals or permanent residents. There is absolutely no doubt that you are a Canadian only, and have been for decades.
AnonAnon, that is a good point re: the Alice in Wonderland aspect of this – denying the completion of the relinquishment, which already took place 40 years ago – in keeping with the laws the US made themselves, and now delaying by not accepting proof they themselves are demanding, of US citizenship, that the applicant doesn’t have or want anymore. Can it get any more stupid?
I have seen older US birth documents, from Cook County, and another part of the US; some were unusual in that they looked like shiny greytone photographs of the original record, and the copy that was issued to parents had the official seal punched and embossed onto them. Of course they are not as clear as a paper document, but how can you get much more official than the actual original issued to the parents at the birth of the child – and issued by the very office who was responsible for producing them? That was the official record the US issued at the time. And now, 50 or more years later the US won’t accept their own official documents?
tiger –
FWIW – More than 3 decades ago, the US consulate forced me to acquire a second separate statist marriage certificate to achieve the (now seen as misbegotten) birth registration of children. That requirement alone should have served to expose the utterly demonic nature of the untoward BEAST. Welcome to the club.
Tiger —
Hang in there — you will get this done. I’m stunned that they treated you this way. I’m pretty sure that my wife’s birth certificate and our marriage certificate were also certified copies, and they had no trouble accepting both of them. I don’t know if it helps, but those documents came from the state of Massachusetts and I ordered them online with no difficulty — they arrived in less than a month.
Yours is the most cut and dried, slam-dunk relinquishment I’ve seen. I can’t believe that they would nitpick over the documents. But — perhaps they were making a judgment call on whether or not Washington would accept them. It’s a pain to have them tell you at the consulate to get better copies — but it would be far worse if it all went to Washington, and 12 months later you find out they rejected the application.
Stay strong — you will get through this, and you will get that CLN.*
@Badger
‘some were unusual in that they looked like shiny greytone’ – exactly what my birth certificate that I presented looks like. And as I said in my report, everyone who I have asked to look at it (families, friends, and a neighbor) without any prompting from me, was able to read the filing date. Yes, my father’s middle name is blurred, but his first and last name is quite clear as is my mother’s name, ages, hospital where born etc. And the 1993 version I had, clearly had all the info. The clerk was however, adament in her refusal to accept.
I think I will follow your suggestion and again start a letter writing campaign. Thanks for the links.
The consul used the following words “After all, your birth certificate is actually all we have to prove you were born a U.S. citizenship”. I wish I could get their words in writing – I would then walk away and throw the ball into their court to reclaim me.
I have a US citizen friend who is doing the full ostrich. Her last resort position, should the IRS and the Marines come after her, will be to move back to a quiet corner somewhere in the US, enroll in the medicare program and apply for welfare. The goal is to become a complete cost burden to both the state and federal governments. If that fails, she’ll commit some victimless, but serious, crime that gets her a long jail sentence.
Sometimes revenge is the only satisfaction you can have.*
@Arrow,
I hadn’t thought of that, but you are so right – it would be far worse to have it all go to Washington and then turned down.
As I mentioned in my report, I truly believe the clerk was brand new, right out of Consulate Clerk school. She was so nervous, checking her manual, asking for help etc and of course, then mentioning that she had just returned from Toronto the prior day, where she has received her training. As is often the case, the ‘newbie’ trys extra hard to do the good job. However, although she could be correct re the Civil marriage certificate, I know there was absolutely nothing wrong with the birth certificate.
The problem that I had online, when trying to order the new certificates, was that they asked me to verify my identity by giving my SSN. Well, I am unsure if I ever had one and if I did have one, it has gone the way of the DODO bird. I do understand the necessity to prove my identity prior to getting the certificates mailed out to me.
Perhaps, some day, we in Vancouver, will discover why our consulate does things differently. I think they need an effeciency expert in there.
@Arrow
I like your friend’s attitude.
I was at Tofino this past week with three friends. While having lunch in a Tea Room in Ucluelet, the owner started to speak to us about being an American. I wondered if she had perhaps overheard our conversation as I could think or talk about almost nothing else. She told us she was born in the States of both an American mother and father. Her father came to U Vic as a professor. She waited until she was 18 to become a Canadian, in order to be allowed to be a ‘dual’. She could kick herself now. She has decided to be a ‘full ostrich’ and is prepared to transfer all assets into her husband’s name. Her mother is ‘coming clean’ – her words not mine. She said her mother could not stop ranting and raving about the whole thing. I sure could relate to her mother re the ranting and raving!!!
@tiger, re “The consul used the following words “After all, your birth certificate
is actually all we have to prove you were born a U.S. citizenship”. Exactly the point – why would someone who relinquished 40 years ago, go to the trouble to come forward, and use an invalid document in order to prove that they were born with the US status that they didn’t want? – since they were there only to prove that it had been nullified decades before?
Take heart from Arrow’s words, you will get through this, and it may be that you can get what they are insistent on without too much additional time and effort.
And, to all those getting ready to relinquish or renounce; after reading tiger’s story, it might be good to find out what is involved in getting another/better copy if what you have is the same type of original. Perhaps do it now, while waiting for your appointment to come up. I am concerned that this might happen at another consulate as well. It would be good to hear from readers if it has happened to anyone else.
Actually, I’m wondering if the consulates have accepted these types of documents as proof of US birth for US passports and other official documents – i.e., for purposes other than relinquishments/renunciations? And in the past, they would have been accepting them as proof of identity in lieu of passports to cross into the US at the border. Presumably if that is what Cook County Illinois was giving out, there are thousands of people who would have been using it as their official proof of identity and birth for all the decades up until now. The ones I saw were from the 50s and 60s, so that is 50 or even more years of accepting that type of originals.
Haven’t been to Tofino for several years. It is so beautiful. May you enjoy it soon – with this burden lifted @tiger.
*Nobody gives out ORIGINAL birth certificates from so long ago. I have a ‘CERTIFIED COPY’ of a Florida birth cert. issued in 1956.
It is barely legible. The original was handwritten. The copy is on shiny paper-probably heat transfer because that’s how copiers worked before lasers and ink jets.
At the bottom it is embossed and certified as a true copy by some state official. That’s the only thing that would be available.
Tiger- They are being unreasonable. Tell them ‘fine with me, if you believe I’m not American, put it in writing and we’re done.’
*Honestly, what is the point of having a certified copy if it isn’t accepted by all and sundry. That’s the whole point of having it certified! Ridiculous. If I were you when you send the original through by e-mail, send a copy of the certified one as well and say “Spot the difference, apart from the certified copy bit”.
These days when it’s much easier to have many copies of a document you simply don’t get the problem, but back then the original was the most precious piece of paper you had and you kept it safe so having a certified copy to show officials who needed to see it was vital. I have the original of my father’s birth certificate which is very delicate and torn in places, but still legible. As said, that’s the way they were produced then so how dare they complain about them.
I have both the original and certified copies of my birth certificate so I’ll take both when I set up my first appointment at Bern and pull the certified one out first and see what they have to say. Should be interesting.
*Amazing how complicated the process seems to be from Vancouver. Sounds like a ‘local’ problem to me. Read my experience with the Marseille Consulat which started off bad but ended up efficient (possibly because I complained to the State Dept.)
Experiences thoughout Europe appear to be no way near as complicated as in Canada.
Is it any wonder that governments are so far in debt? They can’t even bring efficiency to a relatively simple administrative process. Imagine the waste and inefficiency as pertains to more complicated stuff (like the military activities & space adventures)? Frightening. With all the budget cuts going on throughout Europe these days they aren’t cutting much out of government. It’s easier just to tax everone a bit more to maintain the status quo in house!
To get this clear, has anyone else reported a problem with a birth certificate? Also, would having an expired U.S. passport obtained years ago before moving from the U.S. serve as official confirmation that a person was in fact born in the U.S. on a certain date and in a certain city.
What Tiger has experienced is so absurd, I can hardly believe someone at a Consulate could be so ignorant.
@Tiger, well I am floored by this. It makes me extremely angry that the burden placed on you is higher than it was on Barack Hussein Obama to become president. He presented a scan of a certificate of live birth to the public (not a long-form birth certificate) and that apparently made him eligible for president. Now you are required to prove what? that you are who you say you are and that you are not an American?
What happened to you is a clear violation of State Department procedure, since their website states:
I.e., the website clearly states that all you have to do is tell them in writing. Nothing about two visits, since that is a “renunciation” requirement.
I remember once that Meryl Streep once told a University graduating class that they should have low expectations of the workplace. Real life, she said, is not like University. It is like high school. But worse, it is like a kafkesque nightmare where bureaucrats make follow procedure without the slightest understanding of the universal and constitutional rights of the people that they are supposed to serve not Lord it over. My hatred for all this crap just continue to grow exponentially. I think I’ll short the US dollar some more.
One of the bright spots (if you can call it that) in this whole idiocy, has been that most reports of Consular visits have been positive. State Dept. employees appear to have more manners and common sense than the IRS. That’s why Tiger’s experience is distressing.
Perhaps a lesson can be learned from her story, i. e. try beforehand to explain to the Consulate or Embassy exactly what documents a person will be bringing with them and if any of those documents will be problematic.
Of course, the person you are pre-discussing documents with could very likely not be the person you deal with at the time of relinquishment/renounciation. Kinda of like dealing with a call centre!
*Hang in there Tiger, it’s the end result that counts! My birth certificate is a certified copy with an embossed seal from 1956 and is perfectly legible. It looks kind of like a negative with a black background and white print. Looking at the Michigan website, the only option is a certified copy, although an exemplified version with an apostille is available for twice the price. An apostille however, cannot be applied to a document to be used in the US, so what other option is there? Apparently, if an original cannot be produced, you are not a US person and problem solved. If what the clerk says about the decision to grant a CLN being based exclusively on the 4079 and 4081 is accurate, what’s with the reports of consulates asking for the last US address? That info is not requested on either of those documents.
Words almost fail me in expressing my anger at reading what Tiger has been put through. And the words I’d like to use aren’t suitable for use on a public website. All I can politely say is I wish Tiger all the best, and the moron in the Vancouver consulate all the worst. This whole thing is a nasty mixture of Franz Kafka, Stephen King, and Joseph Heller (Catch-22). What on earth does the alleged illegibility of Tiger’s father’s middle name have to do with her relinquishment? Then there’s the issue of the marriage certificate. The US government doesn’t recognize church marriage certificates? Now there’s an interesting little bombshell one might lob into the election campaign. State marriages in front of a justice of the peace are OK but marriages performed in a church aren’t? I’d think the Republicans, not to mention the Mormons, should have a field day with that one.
Tiger, do you have a Canadian passport? If you do, then obviously the Government of Canada didn’t have a problem with your birth certificate or your marriage certificate either. Presumably also those forms were used when you became a citizen of Canada (though the birth certificate maybe was less worn and more “legible” back then). The forms are good enough for the Government of Canada, your adopted and adoptive country, but not good enough for the country of your birth? The so-called leader of the so-called free world? The land of “exceptionalism?”
Is the consulate seriously saying you weren’t born in the US, when it says on the certificate, and you weren’t married? Home free, bye bye Miss American Pie, … you and all your sons, as you’ve noted.
I’ve heard of bureaucrats doing idiotic things before, but I think this case sets a new record for mindless stupidity and inhumanity. If I were still an American, I’d hang my head in shame, then I’d start a campaign to get a bunch of people in the State Department food chain fired. Not to mention the President at whose desk, as Harry Truman famously once said, the buck stops. Change you can believe in???
Maybe write a complaint about this to John Baird our Foreign Affairs minister, with copies to the NDP (Paul Dewar) and Liberal (not sure who at the moment) critics for foreign affairs. If your MP won’t go to bat for you on this, no matter what his political affiliation, he’s a waste of space and should resign or be dumped. Does BC have recall legislation for MPs?
Hang in there; we all feel your pain and anger, and we are all rooting for you.
@Schubert
I do have a Canadian passport and have had one since about 1990. When I applied for my first Canadian passport I definitely produced the original birth certificate that they denied last week.
When I became a Canadian citizen (1972), I would have most definitely had to show my birth certificate and landing information etc at that time. Because the Birth Certificate was starting to show signs of wear, I applied for and was sent a “Certified” copy of my birth certificate in June 1993. There is no raised seal on the paper, but the words on the paper state: “I, David D. Orr, County Clerk of the County of Cook, in the State of Illinois, ……., do hereby certify that the attached is a true and correct copy of the original Record on file, all of which appears from the records and files in my ofice.” It is then signed by David D. Orr. She would not accept the second document because she claimed it was a photocopy. I spoke to my brother (still living in Cook County) yesterday. He said that Cook does not issue “Certified Copies” with seals, only copies like the one I have from 1993.
Regarding the marriage certificate, my brother did say that he had to apply for a Civil marriage certificate when he and his wife got divorced. Did your wife have to produce a marriage certificate and if so, did she have a Civil certificate? The sheet the consulate here sent me home with, clearly states “Civil marriage Certificates with filing date”.
The more I think about the clerk, I truly believe that I was her ‘test case’. She had just stepped out of her class for “Consular Clerks”. Unfortunately, reading other reports from Vancouver, it seems that you always get the same clerk for your second appointment.
My frustration level is so high, at times I want to drop the whole thing. But I do fear now I have a target on my back; therefore, I must proceed.
It is good to know I have people like you in my corner.
@CDN
‘What’s with the consulates asking for the last U.S. address?’ I forgot to also report that on the bottom of the form the Clerk sent me home with (a form that lists all the documents required etc.), it also says: Please provide the following information:
*Hazy2,
When I when to the Toronto consulate, they accepted a long expired US passport as proof of my US citizenship. No birth certificate was required.