If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@Calgary and AnonAnon,
Your points are well taken. I will also wait until asked for a CLN. Let ’em sweat!
@calgary – GOOD ONE! That clinches it. And, the more the merrier.
@Rivka88/Patricia – you are too funny! How about adding Patricia 2 and nobledreamer to the mix? 😉
@tiger,
yes, I guess it is.
I tried to open an online investment account in Belgium with Keytrade. When I filled in the forms and they looked at my Belgium ID card where it states I was born in the USA they refused to open the account. When I told them I was a dual national, Belgium and American, they still refused to open the account and said the only way the could process the request is if I renounce my US citizenship! I invested other on line brokers throughout Europe and they all responded identically.
Ironically I have Belgian friends who have a green card, live and work in the USA, own rental property in Belgium for which they pay no taxes (rental income is not taxed in Belgium) and they have an online brokerage account. Yet as an American citizen I am entitled to fewer rights than a foreigner living and working in the US!
*
Renunciation at the Marseille Consulate July/August 2012
First contact (end July) by phone was predictable. Although I informed the clerk that I was aware of the renunciation procedure and had downloaded from the internet the required forms (DS-4079, DS-4080 and DS-4081) she insisted on asking me most of the questions already appearing on the forms. She was unable (or unwilling) to answer my questions such as when could I have an appointment, how long would the process take, when would I have to pay the 450$ processing fee etc. She said she would answer my questions by email.
A day or two later I did receive an email from this same person. She sent me the link to the US State Dept. regarding the procedure for renunciation. She confirmed that I would have to pay the 450$ at the time of my interview, send documents DS-4079, DS-4080 and DS-4081 and copies of my foreign passport and citizenship/naturalization documentation to the Consulate through the mail. (note: I do not possess a foreign passport, only an identity card and I never retained the documentation regarding my naturalization).
The consulate refused to schedule an appointment until I sent the documents through the mail. I responded that this was against the State Dept procedure and according to the State Dept. link the consulate sent me, it clearly states that the request for renunciation cannot be done through the mail and must be done in person at an embassy or consulate. The clerk I was communicating with answered in an email “To bring any further clarifications on matter, please note that each consulate or embassy apply their own rules.”
This answer infuriated me as I was trying to follow procedures dictated by the State Dept. yet the Consulate intended to do what suited them. Another example of American bureaucratic arrogance! My answer back outlined each example of the State Dept. policy and in each instance the Consulate’s non adherence to this policy. I wrote that I intended to contact the State Dept. directly unless the Consulate agreed to follow procedure and accord me an appointment to submit the documents, pay the fee, take the oath and sign the documents in the presence of a Consulate officer.
I did not receive an answer to this email so I decided to contact the State Dept. in Washington and report what I experienced. I received an immediate & useless standard reply that listed 20+ different website links I could consult regarding State Dept. services.
However, to my surprise, 6 days later I received an email from the Marseille Consulate stating only “This is to confirm that you are welcome to bring all the documents on your interview. Thank you in advance for letting us know if Friday August 31 at 9:00 am would work for you.”. I have no proof of this but I suspect the State Dept. slapped the hand of the Consulate for not following procedure, I hope so anyway. I felt empowered.
I sent two emails to the clerk at the Consulate asking if the appointment could be scheduled an hour later and asked if I had to pay the fee in dollars, could I pay in euro and if yes at what exchange rate. I did not receive an answer so I telephoned the clerk. She agreed to schedule the appointment for an hour later and asked me if I would send a copy of the forms through the mail beforehand (which I agreed to do). She also confirmed that I could pay the fee in euro and that she would confirm the amount in an email.
The very next day I received an email confirming the fee would be 383 euro and that I should bring the amount in exact change, that my appointment had been rescheduled to 10 o’clock and that I should mail a copy of the forms beforehand. I sent the clerk an email asking her family name so that I could mail the documents to her attention.
The following day she emailed me the following: To clarify, please note that there is no guarantee we will be able to take cash on your appointment day. To stay on the safe side, you may wish to bring your credit card (Visa, AmExpress or MasterCard) as well as cash.
I am sorry but I’d rather not provide my last name.
How bizarre!
August 31st . Had my appointment at the Consulat. Total time spent there was about 1 hour. I was amazed at how friendly and professional everyone was. They took the payment in cash 383 euro with no questions asked. They didn’t demand that I produce a foreign passport and accepted my Belgian ID card as sufficient proof of my Belgian nationality. The Consular general was an extremely pleasant, personable and interesting person and she conducted the interview and signing of the documents with intelligence and graciousness. She stated that I should receive the CLN within two months.
Not at all what I had expected considering the bizarre nature of the contacts by phone and email I had over the past month. I look forward to receiving the CLN and will report back exactly when it arrives.
Congratulations, Dunja, and thanks for sharing your story here. The family name email was very strange!
Wow, almost a year of participating on this site and I have never seen another person from Belgium! I’m sorry to hear that the Marseille consulate had a few hiccups, but I hope that you get your CLN quickly!
*Hello Don Pomodoro,
in fact I had tried to contact you directly through the IBS website to discuss directly with you your experience in Brussels but I guess you never received that email.
I would be interested to discuss your post CLN experience.
Regards
Dunja
@Dunja,
Thanks so much for the description of your experience at the Marseille Consulate. I’m very glad that you stood your ground and had a good experience at your actual appointment for renunciation. I will enter your data on the Renounce & Relinquish database and pacifica will add to the Consulate Directory Report — if you agree. Your process was timely in the end, but would some be intimidated? That is the value of what we build here for reference for those new to this whole disaster in their lives.
How telling and supports the differences we’ve seen among Consulates and Embassies.
*@calgary 411 & pacifica
Yes, by all means do include my report in the appropriate sections of the IBS website. This was a valuable source of information for me, helped take the emotion & fear out of the decision process and gave me the courage to move ahead with this.
Cheers.
Hi Dunja,
Thanks for your report! It is a really interesting one. I’m really glad your actual consulate meeting went well. The communications with them trying to set it up are really bizarre, rather disturbing — I would guess rather stressful, too. Like what on earth is going on??? Good thing you knew about procedure. I get the feeling too it’s quite likely DoS got in touch with them, telling them to follow procedure, due to your e-mail. The consulate’s final e-mail, the whole lead-up actually, is really bizarre.
Sounds like you handled a weird situation really well. I’m glad it all worked out great in the end.
Thanks again. That’s great that Brock and the directory were a help to you in this, glad to hear. I’ll add your report to the directory tomorrow.
More Great News! Congratulations Grey Owl and Mrs. Grey Owl!
Grey Owl posted earlier today on the Brock forum that Mrs. Grey Owl got her CLN this week! (Grey Owl doesn’t need one.) Mrs. Grey Owl formalised her long ago relinquishment at Toronto in October, which is the earliest person waiting for a CLN. 11 months That is a really long wait, so I’m especially happy that she finally has it. Keep ’em comin’, Toronto!
REPORT ON SECOND VISIT TO VANCOUVER CONSULATE FOR RENUNCIATION
Hi Folks,
I just had my second visit at the Vancouver Consulate for my renunciation.
FIRST VISIT
I previously detailed my first visit – it’s on page 35 of the Consulate Report Directory (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Consulate-Report-Directory-2012.09.05.pdf )
As I wrote previously, getting my second appointment was very easy. I could have had it one week after my first, but due to travel plans this summer, the first appointment I could accept was in September. But note that at the Vancouver consulate apparently there is not always a major waiting period between the two visits.
SECOND VISIT
I learned a few lessons from my first visit: I took transit on my second visit so that I could stay as long as needed without worrying about my parking meter running out or paying an exorbitant parking garage fee. I took some quarters and loonies in case I needed to make a phone call inside the consulate (they will NOT let you use their phone, I tried – but there is a payphone). I brought a book, since there is nothing to do or read if you are left waiting a long time. As usual I left my cell phone, car clicker, and all the other prohibited stuff at home (check their list very carefully).
My appointment was for 8:30AM so I showed up outside around 7:55AM. Security has been described by others and it was the same for me. There have been mixed reports about whether there are lockers for your cell phone or not – but I could not find a clear answer so I left my cell phone at home again. I did not see any lockers and no one offered. Security was very fast that day so I was actually upstairs and already talking to someone at a wicket by 8:05AM.
I was directed to the ACS intake wicket. I was the first person to arrive that day, and they lifted the curtain when I rung the bell, as the first client of the day. A very friendly woman looked up my appointment, checked my ID, and gave me a number ticket.
I waited just a few minutes before being called back up to a different wicket. A different woman was there, with my renunciation file. This was the same person who worked with me on my first consulate visit. She is VERY friendly, helpful, polite, efficient, etc – she’s doing her job well. She did most of the work that day – copied things, prepared forms, had me review the forms she typed up to check for errors, and once again, she asked me a series of questions to make sure I knew what I was doing, understood the consequences, etc.
(For the second visit I brought my US passport, Canadian password, US and Canadian birth certificates (short and long form), certificate of US birth abroad, $450 US cash, and the Xpresspost Mailing Envelope following their instructions.)
All of the US documents were at that point taken by the consulate, and they will all be voided and some may be sent back to me, others not. She said the passport would be voided and returned but she was not sure about the other items. My Canadian passport was returned immediately.
Next I was asked to sit down again.
A few minutes later I was called back to a different wicket, where the Consul was now sitting. The consul was friendly and professional as well.
(Clearly the second woman was in charge of preparing everything, and the consul’s job was only to show up at the wicket, review her work, talk to me, sign the papers, and administer my oath. He came for that, then left, and the woman returned to wrap things up.)
The consul greeted me at the wicket. He immediately provided me with a piece of paper and sent me to the Cashier’s Wicket, where I paid the $450 fee in US cash (they take credit and cash – I brought both just in case).
I walked back to the Consul’s wicket with a receipt for $450 from the cashier which I gave him. He then checked my ID very carefully, then proceeded to ask me once again the series of questions making sure I understood what I was doing (he actually apologized for asking me, saying he knew I had heard it 4 times already!). Next he had me read the oath of renunciation with my right hand raised. Next he had me sign the Certificate of Renunciation and two other documents, all in two copies (6 signatures). He countersigned all of these as well. The oath and everything else was all done right at the wicket, with bullet proof glass between us.
Next the consul immediately sent me to a different wicket (without waiting in between), where the second woman was waiting for me. She then reviewed the entire renunciation packet including the papers the consul was just working with. She is making sure everything is there and ready for the US State Department. Since she was doing a final review of the whole package, presumably she put it in a shipment for Washington soon after that, but I did not see her do it.
After that she made sure I had my Canadian ID back, my receipt for the $450 (which is “your only proof of renunciation until you have your CLN”), and I was told that was it. I left the building.
I was also told the same information as before, which is that the CLN could take up to 12 months to arrive at my house. The entire package has to be reviewed and approved in Washington. The woman told me that she had never heard of one not being approved so it is safe to assume that I will be receiving it. When I receive it, the date of my renunciation on the CLN will be the date that I took the oath (at my second consulate visit. In fact as detailed above, they actually created the CLN right there on my second visit, and I have already signed it and handled it! They will be sending me the exact same piece of paper, with a seal added, after it is approved in Washington).
All told, I can once again say that every single person I dealt with at the US consulate in Vancouver is friendly, helpful, polite, professional etc – even when dealing with a renunciation. At no point did anyone even bat an eye at the fact that I was renouncing. Clearly it was all very humdrum for them – they are doing them every day surely.
Feel free to ask me any questions if I left anything out!
Cheers!
John Smith
Congratulations on completing your renunciation, John! Thank you for your very detailed report! It’s very helpful. I’ll add it to the directory tonight. Sounds like the staff were excellent to interact with, always glad to hear that!
Sincere congratulations, John Smith. Your report for the Consulate Directory is awesome and will help many taking the Vancouver Consulate route.
I’ve updated your information on the Renounce & Relinquish database. Hope you will receive your CLN long before the 12 months they say it could take! We’ll look forward to putting that final date of your CLN into the database for you.
Once again, thanks for the detailed account of your experiences at your two Vancouver Consulate appointments. Cheers!!!
@John Smith,
Congratulations on having completed the process. Your report is packed with valuable information.
Like you I am using the Vancouver consulate but I am a ‘relinquisher’. My first appointment is next week. I do wish the consulate here would perhaps become more efficient and speed things up. By what you and others have said, I guess it is likely that I won’t get my 2nd appointment until 2013.
@Tiger,
I may be an optimist, but it seems that starting this summer Vancouver has improved its wait times between first and second meetings. John mentioned he was offerred a second appt a week later but couldn’t take it because of travel plans, and two renunciants in July had their second appts about a week-and-a-half after their first. (these 3 are the only Van reports we’ve gotten from people who started the process this summer).
I really think requiring a second visit to notify a consulate of a relinquishment (and in your case decades old) is absurd. I hope Vancouver changes that to just one visit, but if not, hopefully, based on these reports, your second visit will be long before 2013.
@tiger
Thanks for the support!
Regarding the second appointment, I agree with pacifica777: if things stay as they were for me this summer, you could be offered a second appointment for shortly after your first.
Try to do what I did, which is have your second appointment booked by the person helping you during your first appointment. My understanding from my experience is that they can do this IF everything is in order during your first visit. It worked for me.
Good luck!
@John Smith
Thanks for that bit of advice.
My appointment is 1 week today and I must admit that I am almost at the stage of hyperventilation. I would dearly love to have someone come with me but from what I read on the website, it is unlikely that a friend would be allowed to enter the building and it is most definitely a very bad idea to have one of my sons attend with me.
I have gone over all the advice on what to bring with me – ie DS4079. DS4081, birth certificate, marriage certificate (indicates name change), citizenship document, Canadian passport. I also have a written statement on why I chose to relinquish (with intent and voluntarily). I will also have with me a photocopy of the microfiche copy of my citizenship application. It contains verification of my landing in Canada. I have never had a U.S. passport so nothing to turn in there.
I will most certainly ask the person who is helping me on the 21st to book my next appointment. I just want this to all be over with so that I can put it behind me and try to start enjoying life again.
@ Tiger, sounds like you have all your ducks lined up and ready to go. When you feel nervous about this, I’d suggest reading or thinking about John’s and other reports about Vancouver. That should help to reassure you, as they sound like nice sensible people working there. Several people had reported about Toronto before I had my appointment there and that helped keep me pretty calm … sure enough, the consulate people were really friendly and helpful.
@ tiger
I agree with pacifica again – I’m confident there is nothing for you to worry about at the Vancouver consulate.
Even if something is not in order with your papers, they will simply tell you what you are missing. You may be able to mail it in, or you might have to visit again.
Either way the staff will be pleasant.
@tiger, you’ve made good progress and doing what you have decided you have to do for yourself. Doing any less will drive you crazy. One day at a time, one step at at time. Who am I to know, but I have a good feeling that you’re going to come through this OK. It sounds like you are as well prepared as anyone could be going into your appointment; the Vancouver Consulate people sound reasonable; and you won’t be alone — you will have a lot of people here sending you good vibes a week from now (and leading up to that date).
@pacifica, john and calgary
Thanks to all of you for your kind and comforting words. They really do help to calm me down. I have a feeling that next Thursday I might be re-reading alot of this.
Sorry to be late in weighing in on this, Tiger, I’ve been offline until now. Best wishes, we’re all rooting for you. I’d say good luck, but I don’t think you need it. I’ve “known” you on the web long enough to know you’re going in very well-prepared for this.
Everyone is going to be a bit nervous going into one of these interviews, and everyone I’ve known who’s come out of the interview (except at the embassy in Ottawa, which seems to be operating in a dark universe quite different from that of the consulates) has done so beaming and relieved. My wife went to Toronto a bit nervous even with all the coaching and prep we’d done, came out beaming and told me the clerk and vice-consul couldn’t have been nicer to her, the vice-consul was relaxed, smiling, dressed casually, and she said he reminded her a lot of her favourite nephew. From all accounts things are just as pleasant in Vancouver, once you get the interview.