If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
@USX, I avoided dual citizenship partly because of personal lack of comfort with divided loyalties. I do agree with Schubert about those who take government or military positions which require utter loyalty to one country.
Yet in the end, the US government forced me to decide between a Canadian identity and a US identity. So I’ve never been a dual. Exchanged one citizenship for the other, is what I did. But it would have been preferable to have the right to return to the United States and not to be treated as a stranger and a foreigner, when I am actually a native son. Canada is fine, for now. But if ever it were to become a tyrannical regime that consumes personal wealth, including RRSPs and TFSAs of the “rich”, in order to pay for benefits of others, I would also be tempted to leave with whatever I could take with me. For now, Canada allows me to realize a stunted “American dream”. That could change in the time it takes to elect a change of government. E.g., I own stock in a single mining company in Quebec (NOX). But I am tempted to exit the positions with the gains that I have made because the PQ has apparently promised to make Quebec miners pay. I can easily exit an investment in la belle Province if it turns hostile to the job-creating mines around Val-d’Or. But if Canada turns into a half-Korean genocide machine, I now have no place to which I have the right as a citizen to find refuge.
I suppose I understand how one could be offended by the attitude that wishes to shun dual citizenship. However, I am left wondering about your (USX) particular situation–or is it just the principles that you stated that prompted you to have such strong feelings about this line of reasoning that eschews dual citizenship; I am not really aware that you’ve ever shared here your particular circumstances.
Petros – As I’ve indicated before, I am deeply suspicious of “reasons,” including my own. I thought it might be a worthwhile exercise to start from the admittedly emotional fact of deep offense and to try to figure out some details. I think I did manage to get somewhere beyond blurting out emoticons like “nauseating” and “disgusting” and parading a huff. It comes down to perceiving an arrogance that privileges its own notion of what people “ought” to think and do as then becoming a standard for what is expected of others. A norm. How could they possibly! etc. To inject a formulaic qualifier into a rant and then point back to that as exculpation is a sophistry akin to paralipsis. It’s funny how almost nobody seems to want to engage with issues or ideas. Only with how they feel and how they get defensive. And how they just shut up and go away when challenged. Or maybe lob aspersions back. Like two-year-olds on a playground. There’s a reason Socrates got did in for his maieutics. Exhibiting personal circumstances can have value, but in this context would distract from the efforts of thinking through by facilitating facile reductionism. A personal preference for single citizenship I have no problem with. I get offended by the mindset behind intimations and maneuvers that seek to nudge that personal preference in the direction of categorical imperative (especially when a chorus of me-too gets going). Be like me. If not, then we’re us and you’re them. That’s a hallmark of seeking power and despising freedom. Self-indulging in repetitions on the theme is like bad advertising. Say it multiple times and try to make it more true, thus compounding offense. A useful recent book: Examined Lives by James Miller. homo sum; humani nihil mihi alienum est Reify any particular principality or power and you’ve bought yourself a Dagon. You know that. Be good if more did.
Hi Lisa,
Thank you, and your friend, very much for sharing his Bern renunciation visit story. I put his report in the directory. It’s really good to hear that things are going smoothly with this in Bern.
Hi, Lisa.
I see that you have described a renunciation experience conversation you had with a friend, which will be helpful to others. Can I add this as a second entry for the Renounce & Relinquish database: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/13/ask-your-questions-about-renunciation-and-relinquishment-of-united-states-citizenship-discussion-thread/?
Request Date: 2012.07 (going back six weeks from, say, 2012.09.07?)
First Appt: 2012.09 (no second appt. req’d)
CLN: (hopefully will be dated 2012.09 and will receive by 2012.12)
You previously reported for yourself and a friend in Stockholm, correct? Is there any update for the information reported under Stockholm, Sweden on our database?
We appreciate all your information, which will assist others looking for experiences in either Sweden or Switzerland. Thanks!
I just received my CLN today! The CLN is stamped approved, July 23 2012. It was mailed from the Toronto Consulate on August 15 however, it didn’t arrive until September 6 because the wrong postal code was on the envelope. The CLN confirms I voluntarily relinquished my US citizenship on February 12, 1969. I am so grateful to each and every Brocker on IBS, and those who were on Expatforum before we were censored. Thank you.
@baird68,
CONGRATULATIONS!! I’ll update the Renounce and Relinquish database to show the receipt of your CLN and your completion of a long process. You’ve been part of the conversation and results we compile, so thank you too. It takes all of us. I’m so very glad you are one that had confirmed the fact that you voluntarily relinquished in 1969. My best!!
Super news Baird! You’ve been waiting 10 months or so I think. Must be great to finally see it in writing! And what with February 12, 1969 probably being considerably more than half your lifetime ago, great to see your life recorded accurately on the document after this weird year.
Woo-hoo Baird!!! Congratulations! You’ve cleanly knocked me, Johnnb and his wife off our former pedestals as “old timers” in the relinquishment CLN game, on this website (and Expatforum too as I recall) anyway! Sounds like you and Nobledreamer got processed in the same batch, further indication that things are finally moving with Toronto applications. Wonder how many other botched postal codes are in the batch … That’s a new twist to the reasons for delays! Murphy’s Law still applies, I guess.
OMG, there’s another one! Just saw CDNHoosier reported on the Brock forum, s/he are picking their CLN at Toronto up next week. Their meeting was in November. Congratulations, CdnHoosier!
FANTASTIC CdnHoosier! I remember you from ExpatForum, and if my memory isn’t playing tricks we corresponded privately after a certain interview you gave (forgive me if I’m confusing you with someone else; I’ve lost all my ExpatForum correspondence so I can’t check). I think CdnHoosier is the first person I know of who went to Toronto for a CLN after Peter, or one of the first.
I think I hear the grinding sounds of logs moving in a distant river …
*Baird – so very, very happy for you. I picked mine up today and like you, the letter notifying me was dated August 15.
I am not sure where to post the following but feel may be of interest to some:
1) each of my forms are signed by the vice consul with his seal but what is odd is that the the actual CLN itself, is signed by him, with his seal and dated March 2, 2012. My renunciation was January 20. I assume this means that it did not leave Toronto until that date. ???? My impression was that the investigating was done in/by DC DOS folks.
2) when I was paying the bill, the lady said, “well, you realize it will be $450?” and I told her I did know and that it was the saddest $450 I ever spent. She asked me why I was doing it. I said “you don’t know?” She said, “No I don’t but I sure do know that are a lot of you.” I told her in two sentences – FUBAR w/CDN spouse bearing brunt + OVDI and people losing their retirements. If I could have taken a photo of her face – she was horrified. She leaned over and told me as far as she was concerned, I would always be an American at heart. It was really very touching. And though I couldn’t ask her “How many?” I thought you all would like to hear her comment.
@ all,
am trying to catch up with posts after being away -WOW congrats to Schubert/wife and Don! Am so happy to hear this.
I was told today that I should make a copy of the original and attach my original CLN to the foreign passport. How confusing this all is! <sigh>
@Schubert – CDN Hoosier was also one of those in the famous “mass meeting” on Oct 20. Globe & Mail article as well.
@Nobledreamer
Congratulations for having that most valuable piece of paper in hand. It must be a glorious feeling. It would be interesting to know whether the staff person was a Canadian or an American. I do know that many of the staff at the consulates are not American.
Interesting that it took six weeks (Jan.20 to March 2) from your appointment until the form was signed by the vice consul. It could mean so many things – ineffeciency, not enough staff, or just a very large increase in their work load ie relinquishments and renunciations.
*nobledreamer
My cover letter dated 2012-07-19 was signed by the Consul with the Seal of the Consulate General. Letter stated that I ceased being a USC as of 2012-03-01.
My CLN was signed by the vice-consul, with seal and dated 2012-03-01
What date is given for the expatriating act on your CLN?
@Nobledreamer. Thanks and thanks for reassuring me that my memory isn’t going the way of all flesh … My advice to my wife and others is put the original of your CLN in your safe deposit box and keep a photocopy with your passport, not the other way around (this is what I’ve been doing). You don’t want to have to go through the consulate application route again to replace the original if it goes missing somehow. There’s no reason they need to see the original at the border, the vice-consul told my wife that your CLN file is on State’s computer system and that the border people have access to those files on their computers at the border. He told her this after she asked about crossing the border on her Canadian passport showing US birthplace before she gets her CLN, saying just tell them your CLN is in the works and they can verify this on their own computers. Presumably the same computers will also verify that your CLN has been approved. At least that’s the way it should work in a rational world.
Make several copies. Have one to give your banker if (s)he starts bugging you about FATCA.
@Tiger – thanks, yes, it is a relief but I have to admit there is also great sadness. Though no breaking down while there. The staff person was an American – very, very friendly, from NY, just across the border; here 3 years with her American husband (due to his job)with 2 to go. I find it astounding that she would notice there were “so many” and yet nobody had discussed it at all; makes you wonder, eh?
@Patricia- did you renounce in Toronto? My cover letter did not have the seal though was signed by the consul. My neighbors, who were watching my mail for me and instructed to open anything from DOS/IRS and to contact me immediately, didn’t take it seriously. because the envelope was hand-written – both address and return address. The date of expatriating act on the CLN matches the actual date of 2nd appt – January 20. I am also Patricia!
@Schubert – I think your idea makes much more sense than what I was told. You should see my original CDN immigration document – the original, stapled into each US passport as time went on. It’s a relic! And provoked laughter from CDN staff when provided for citizenship. I just read all the posts on the forum about the info being on the computers once applied for. This is good to know for any/all or are in the process and waiting. Am intrigued by a post around that time that Tim wrote concerning only 6 people are authorized to approve CLN;s. I wonder if there is a way to find out more about this. Don’t know why, am just curious. I also appreciate your descriptions of crossing the border without problems. And, I plan to provide a copy to each/every bank/credit union I deal with and require them to make a copy for my files. I’m gonna cut ’em off at the pass! 😉
@All – Thanks for all your good wishes. And Nobledreamer, I like your proactive approach to have your CLN copied by your financial institutions. I’m going to try to contact the IRS to make sure my SSN is no longer valid. I got it last November so I could file taxes and FBARs for the past 5 years. Yes, I was paranoid!
@baird68 Thanks, I just anticipate a whole lot of problems will pop up once this whole FATCAT goes into play and want to avoid it as much as possible. BTW, I don’t think you were paranoid, all things aside. IRS did absolutely nothing to mitigate the terror and fear they created. Shame on them.
*I’m not planning to be proactive by giving my banks copies of my CLN when it arrives. I want to find out how they are going to go about determining their customers’ US personhood status, and object to it. I will tell them that I am a Canadian citizen, and I will provide copies of my CLN only under protest and if absolutely necessary. Why make it easy for them to comply with the unwarranted FATCA intrusion on our privacy?
@AnonAnon
good comments. I will reconsider.
@AnonAnon
Sadly that will only work in Canada and not for everyone affected by this mess. I just opened a new account at a regional bank in Belgium and was shocked to be asked the moment that the banker entered my birth place into the computer whether or not I was a US person – They’ve obviously updated their firmware to automatically “root out the US people”. What was even more shocking was the look of glee on his colleague’s face when I pulled out the CLN – I wasn’t expecting this tiny bank to have had any previous dealings with “US persons”, but he had obviously dealt with this issue a lot already. He then said that had I been a “US person” I would have been subjected to a hefty monthly surcharge to open the account. Outright refusal to open accounts for “US persons” hasn’t reached Belgium yet from Germany and Switzerland it seems…
*nobledreamer
@Patricia- did you renounce in Toronto? I renounced in Montréal, they seem to operate somewhat differently than other consulates.
My cover letter did not have the seal though was signed by the consul. My neighbors, who were watching my mail for me and instructed to open anything from DOS/IRS and to contact me immediately, didn’t take it seriously. because the envelope was hand-written – both address and return address. Mine came in an official envelope, but was also addresed by hand
The date of expatriating act on the CLN matches the actual date of 2nd appt – January 20. I am also Patricia! Maybe we can pretend to be back in grade-school and switch desk assignments for the substitute teacher. You can use Patricia and I will revert to my old alias of Rivka88. we can switch again in a few months
@Patricia and @Patricia
Bet it is more than a bit nice to be able to post with your ‘real’ name.
@AnonAnon and nobledreamer,
Waiting to be asked and then citing Canadian privacy rights is a way to get the point across. We will have the CLN when push comes to shove.