If you arrive here through an old link, please click here for the Current Thread.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 274 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with links to further information and the required Dept of State forms.
Reports are updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
2013.02.12. As of today, this discussion now continues at Part 2. Please click here to go to Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 2.
*Patricia, I tried your link and still could not find form 8854 for 2012. What in the Hell is wrong with the IRS? Why can’t they have a page written in a non-martian dialect of English which clearly delineates which forms are needed for certain accounts, with examples of what those certain accounts are (e.g. the passive aggressive flow through accounts for reporting pensions etc.). Also a good glossary for their extraterrestrial economics/accounting terms written in layman English would be appreciated perhaps with an accompanying puppet show for clarification. Are they deliberately trying to make us f up the forms and fbars so they can penalize us and grab our hard earned wealth?
@ jer33.3 & Lisa: So you didn’t have to go back for a second appointment to do the final renounciation? It was all done with just the one appointment? Wow, if so, that will really cut down the waiting times. If you can confirm, I’ll post that info on a thread on the English Forum over here so people considering it will know.
@Medea Fleecestealer: Confirmed. I specifically asked him if he had to visit the embassy a second time.. His answer you see in the email (no, he did not have to go back) is exactly what he wrote me in response to my question.
*@ Banany
curtesy of A broken man on a Halifax pier
try the link below, the IRS is not always at fault,
@Patricia – Good catch. Try this URL – I think something in your system munged it while autocorrecting em-dashes: http://1.usa.gov/S5VL4L
*Thanks, Lisa. I’ve mentioned that on a couple of threads at the Forum so people know if they’re thinking about taking the final step in separating from the US. With the banks being so touchy, any delays in completing the process could be critical to keeping your accounts here. Now if only sorting out all the final tax forms was so easy!
*@Medea: I didn’t have to have two interviews. I think in Switzerland, there are so many duals seeking freedom that the Embassy is sympathetic to the current situation and try to process the renunciations quickly. I have four children over the age of 18. They plan to do the same.
*@calgary4111: My first contact was with a reply from the US Embassy on July 8, 2012 to my inquiry. I called on July 9th and they gave me an appointment for one month later, August 7. Aside for the Swiss punk in a uniform at the door, it went smoothly. A half hour wait in the waiting area for no apparent reason and then a very pleasant renouncing. No office, just a woman behind the counter. I recommend it to any American with dual citizenship living in Switzerland. From the things I read, it seems to be a potential nightmare with the Banks and Americans living in this country. Once FATCA starts, I can not imagine it will be any easier. I even read on the English Forum that the US Ambassador here has been recommending renouncing for dual citizens. Don’t know if that is true, but if it is, what does that say?
@jer33.3:
In the SF Swiss television interview on July 4, 2012, the US Ambassador to Switzerland states that it is “practical” for US citizens to renounce who do not plan to return to live in the US. Interview starts at 1:30:
http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=39053d8b-917c-4fb5-bd69-89d490bf836e
@jer33.3:
The head of the Swiss-American Chamber of Commerce, Martin Naville, made this comment in L’Hebdo in February 2012 (originally posted by Don Pomodoro):
En attendant, conseille Martin Naville, directeur de la Chambre de
commerce suisseaméricaine, «les binationaux dont le passeport américain
n’a pas de vraie utilité seraient bien avisés de le rendre, car cela
coûte simplement trop cher de le garder».
http://www.hebdo.ch/pourchasses_des_americains_rendent_leur_passeport_146769_.html
I don’t expect US Ambassadors in other countries to be queueing up to make the same kind of statement the one in Switzerland did on July 4 (viz. Innocente above). I also would be curious to see what happens to that ambassador vis-a-vis his job after the November election, no matter who wins. However I completely agree with that ambassador, and I would suggest the advice also applies to US citizens living in all other countries, if they have become citizens of those other countries, have established happy and productive lives there, and have no plans to return to the US to live. A US passport is not only unnecessary in such cases, but as we all know is a huge liability that is likely to become even worse. I understand and respect that not everyone shares my views and values, but I really have trouble understanding why anyone in such a situation would actually want to remain a dual citizen. In fact personally I have a lot of trouble with (and little-to-no sympathy for) the concept of dual citizenship, especially for persons accepting and being allowed to accept positions in any level of the public service, legislature, judiciary or military of a country. It’s only fair to play on one team at a time, in my book. But then I have the same view of marriage … unlike adherents to some religions I won’t debate about here.
@Schubert
Well put.
I have even more trouble understanding how/why someone can live in a country most of their life and not become a citizen of that country. I was criticized by a friend this past spring when I told them that part of my Canadian citizenship oath required me to ‘renounce’ allegiance to the U.S.
She has lived in Canada 42 of her 65 years. She has never become a Canadian citizen. Because she has learned of the present situation she has started to file her U.S. taxes, going forward. At the present time, her husband, is residing in a subsidized seniors home because he suffers from Alzheimers. It is the Canadian government who is subsidizing his care, not the government of the U.S. In fact, if they were living in the U.S., the care would cost a small fortune. And yet, she faults me for ‘giving up’ my American citizenship.
@ Schubert,
That’s one reason I was appalled last year when I thought that theUS had reinstated my US citizenship retroactively.
I have been elected as a delegate to several national political conventions and policy conferences of my political party over the years. There was no way on earth I even thought about US interests when voting on our policy platform, let alone vote with US interests in mind. I never even thought about theUS one way or another at all.
But a dual citizen might consider the interests of their other country in such a situation. I didn’t even have an “other country” because I had relinquished my former citizenship.
Even theUS ’s own Dept of State webpage says a dual citizen owes allegiance to both countries. That is not me … and that is one reason why I chose not to be a dual citizen. I honour my contracts and that’s why I terminated my contract with the US when I entered my contract with Canada. I play on one team at a time.
I was appalled at the thought that I might have been made retroactively a “dual citizen,” because the only people I had in mind when making decisions at national policy conferences were the people of my riding and my province that sent me there to represent them.
Nothing can change the reality of that, which is why having the date of my relinquishment, having the reality of my life, recognised is important to me.
@jer33.3,
Finally got back here and have updated the Renounce & Relinquish database with your information. It’s so good to hear that the wait list there has disappeared, that only one appointment is needed, that it was an OK experience. I can understand that the US Ambassador in Switzerland is recommending renouncing for dual citizens there — I hope it is true and thereby easy for everyone. There is no other way that you can live there as a dual citizen with what is happening to all of you. Congratulations once again and thanks so much for the information that we are able to add to our compilation.
Good luck to your kids. We’ll be glad to add their information here when they have had successful experiences in renouncing in Switzerland.
*Schubert and Pacifica777
I am of mixed feeling on this issue. I find it amazing that some people have lived in Canada for 20, 30 and in some cases 40 years without becoming Canadian citizens however I do have more sympathy for more recent American arrivals lets say in the last twenty years who happen to be “covered expatriates” and do/did have worry about things such as the Reid Amendment and “Exit Tax” rules especially when really none of the previous governments of Canada i.e. Harper, Martin, and Chretien has made any effort to criticize these rules or make share Canadian “covered” expatriates are exempted. I know of several cases where US citizens for example where hired to run Canadian companies such as Rick George at Suncor and Karen Sheriff at Bell Aliant. Both them and their families later all became Canadian citizens which is I think is admirable and utterly appropriate and expected. However, it is not clear to me what they did with the US citizenship. Neither of them has ever appeared in the Federal Register and both of them are “rich” enough to be covered expatriates subject to the Reid Amendment and exit tax. So given the environment politically regarding renounciation especially with wealthy people and the fact Canada has never crictized the Reid Amendment I would not necessarily resent the fact that both may have kept their US citizenship if they were concerned about the Reid Amendment or faced financial complications with the “Exit Tax”.
http://www.bellaliant.ca/english/about/management_sheriff_bio.shtml
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/careers-leadership/karen-sheriff-a-steady-climb-to-the-top-of-the-telephone-pole/article535016/
http://www.suncor.com/en/about/804.aspx
*More on Rick George
Originally from Brush, Colorado, Rick spent 10 years with Sun Company both in the U.S. and the U.K. During this time, he held various positions in the areas of project planning, production evaluation, exploration and production, and in the international oil business, the last four of which were spent in the U.K. as managing director of Sun Oil Britain Limited. He moved from London, England to his current position in 1991.
Rick holds a Bachelor of Science degree in engineering from Colorado State University, a law degree from the University of Houston Law School and is a graduate of the Harvard Business School Program for Management Development.
He and his wife, Julie, have three children. The entire family became Canadian citizens in 1996.(This would be just as the Reid Amendment was coming into effect)
@Tim
Just a guess but I bet they have remained U.S. citizens and have been filing taxes in both countries. I remember reading the article about Karen Sheriff in the Globe and speaking to my brother about it – he is a Chicago business owner, involved in telecommunications. He told me that he believed she had retained her U.S. citizenship.
*tiger
I suspect you are totally correct as their is no evidence to the contrary. I would not shock me to some day see Rick George in the Federal Register although that might cause a huge crisis between Ottawa and Washington. George retired from Suncor a few months ago.
@tiger and Tim,
O&G companies generally take care of the tax requirements for their executives and probably lesser management to a point. There are tax departments in these companies that deal with corporate matters, but personal tax matters, I think, would be handled by outside legal and accounting firms. There would be many US Canada duals working in Canada’s oilpatch and located elsewhere in the world. The US Exit Tax upon renunciation for them would be horrendous. Their best interest would most likely be to retain dual citizenship and continue with having someone else do all the drudgery. They ain’t most of us, but they certainly have their own and family difficulties with all this. They earn their money in the country of their residence and pay taxes to their countries of residence and, many contribute significantly to their countries of residence monetarily and as corporate citizens that care about their communities. They have their own US traps.
Earlier on this year, some tax firms were advising their clients who were trying to achieve compliance, and were filing in 2012 for 2011 and various numbers of back years, that they would file a request for an extension to file for 2011 on their client’s behalf – anticipating the details of this ‘new’ program – to see what was required, and how to qualify.
If the firms sent in the 2011 FBAR by the June 2012 deadline, and filed a request for an extension of the 2011 return (to October 2012), but haven’t yet actually ‘filed’ the 2011 tax return itself, (or any of the other back years ’09, or 2010), does that disqualify the client from qualifying – under the exclusion noted in the IRS questionaire, of those who had already ‘filed’ for ’09-’11? In other words, does having filed an FBAR for 2011, and making an extension request for the 2011 tax return, then work against their clients ability to fit into this ‘new’ program?
I think that there is sufficient variation on people’s circumstances vis a vis dual citizenship, and the ability to renounce, family circumstances, etc. that there was/is no one right answer for everyone – those who inherited dual citizenship, or acquired it from a parent/parents do not get a choice. People also want to live near and with their family members. That can be difficult if one parent, or close family member goes back to the US, and another stays in Canada – those left behind want to know that they can assist family ‘abroad’ in times of trouble, and so keep the citizenship that gives them the right to travel and live – if necessary, in another country. Both the citizenship laws in Canada and the US have changed over time – sometimes retroactively. Can the ordinary person be expected to anticipate those changes?. I don’t think that dual citizenship always automatically puts one in a conflict of interest position. I have also met permanent residents with deep comitments to Canada, who were more politically active and aware of Canadians and local issues than citizens born Canadian. Many duals don’t have the right to vote in the US, or have never voted there, so the conflict of interest may have no actual method of expression. And, there are individuals and politicians in all countries whose higher allegiances are to corporate interests – who really don’t respect national borders and citizenships.
If the person has shown their commitment to Canada by living here, and contributing in other ways, and paid taxes, and raised family here, that demonstrates an allegiance in a concrete way.
*Quite right badger. As one born in the US of British parents I’ve been a dual citizen from birth as my US birth was also registered with the British embassy at the time. It turns out that I ended up spending much more of my life in Britain than America, yet I have always considered myself to be American first and British second. The only reason I applied for a British passport in the first place was because I was going to travel to the US and my mother hated the thought of me returning to Britain and passing through passport control as an “alien” because she was afraid that they might not let me back in on a US passport. Having a British passport gave her peace of mind about the journey. I only use the American one now for travel to the US as the British one is simply easier for travel within Europe.
However, having left the States while still at school I’ve never voted, worked or done any other things that Americans would do, it has all been done in Britian.
I’m now very grateful for my parents’ “foresight” in registering my birth with the British embassy as it will make renouncing my American citizenship much easier. Don’t get me wrong, I will be very sad to renounce. America is my place of birth and where I spent my formative years and so will always be “home” to me in many ways. But Britain is where I worked, lived and married and is the country I’m closest to now in my life. My husband has no wish to move to the States, should we find that our life here in Switzerland must come to an end so Britain will be the country we return to.
The only benefit my American citizenship is giving me is slightly easier entry to the States when on holiday there and it just isn’t compensation enough for the upcoming Swiss bank issues. Our trips back are simply not frequent enough (4 since 1968) to make it worthwhile going through the annual hassle of tax compliance just to keep the bank happy and let us have an account so we can pay our bills.
I found the retwang on that tired old how-could-anyone-be-dual harpstring by schubert1975 and tiger the second most offensive thing I have ever met with at Brock. So I spent some time thinking about why.
Out of the chorus of response in the same key, a bit of credit goes to a few for more than vocal-cord jerk reflex — despite the various pollutions of the stabs at nuance.
(1) To assert in this sphere what would be the desirable case for any person other than oneself is pure presumption. (2) There are Brockers who have explained their dilemmas — and still are being told they would do better to do otherwise! (3) A call in the abstract for reduction to single statehood betokens a petty mindset that just loves those neat little rules, and has a distaste for freedom. (4) An odor of love-it-or-leave-it inevitably attaches to insistence on the superiority of single statehood. (5) Proud Canadians who somehow believe that Canada is “different” or “better” fail to see that this is the palimpsest of their own inborn American exceptionalism. (6) There is nothing natural about “citizenship,” which is primarily a social construct designed to constrain people while allowing freedom of movement to heartless capital. (7) Pragmatism must recognize that any non-US person may be denied entry to the United States without justification or right of appeal. (8) Any privileged person who expounds on this topic should have been born into conditions that would instill proper appreciation of the sheer happenstances of location, location, location. (9) A wish for the true-believer single-staters: may they find themselves in one of those historical situations where ability to exit means survival — and turned back because they have no claim or right to be elsewhere.
You do not own your citizenship; your citizenship owns you. Accidents are no cause for allegiance or pride.
@usxcanada
Perhaps you should re-read both Schubert’s and my post from yesterday. To quote Schubert – “I understand and respect that not everyone shares my beliefs and values”.
And the point of my story re the friend who has lived in Canada most of her adult life and has CHOSEN to not become a Canadian but instead to remain an American, was that she has shown no respect to me for my decision – ie to become a Canadian and relinquish my US citizenship.
I respect the comments of all that addressed the issue. I suspect you only respect your own comments!
schubert1975: I really have trouble understanding why anyone in such a situation would actually want to remain a dual citizen
tiger: I have even more trouble understanding how/why someone can live in a country most of their life and not become a citizen of that country
One thing I can do is read. What you two really want to say and mean is quoted above, the nub of the noodle. In essence – think and be like me or I can’t/won’t/don’t want to understand. (Since you bring it up again, why should we hear anything about a tiger acquaintance and a tiff that I’d say should have remained between the two of you? Establish what point by repeated gossiping about someone else in their absence?) The closing imputation illustrates what you mean by respect. Ostensive is one method.
Residence-based Taxation, Please!!