929 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers describe their Consulate Meetings) Part 1 of 2”

1. @It’s a small problem in the great scheme of things, but if we’re expected to be able to display the CLN at the border, it does complicate framing it.

2. @Schubert,

   I hope you don’t mind — we’ll be there with you (in spirit) for your celebration of gaining freedom from the US. Yours has been a gallant fight and your expertise and encouragement have been such a huge help to all of us here as we decide how best to fight our individual situations. I (We!) are so glad you and your wife have regained your lives and sanity. Thanks so much for all you have done here.

   It will be honour and delight to add your wife’s information to the Renounce and Relinquish database. I wish you well and hope we hear from you from time to time.

3. @a broken man,

   It does present a problem. I’ll get notarized copies of my CLN (when I get it), carry one with my Canadian passport, lock the original in a safety deposit box and frame another notarized copy. I sure would hate to have to go back to the US to ask for another should I lose my original.

4. @broken We both have the originals in our safe deposit boxes.  What gets framed is a photocopy, that’s also what we’ll travel with.  I’ve read elsewhere that US officials have told several people they just need to have a photocopy, they don’t need the original at the border.  For that matter, from what the vice-consul told my wife during her interview when she asked about border crossing while waiting for the CLN, once you’ve applied for a CLN a file on that is opened on State’s computer system, and DHS border people have access to that at the border on their computers.  Realistically I don’t even know why you’d need a photocopy if they can verify your claim to a CLN on their computers, but computer networks do go down or develop glitches, so a photocopy kept with your non-US passport at all times is a good idea.  I don’t think notarizing the copy is really necessary.

5. @Schubert

   Congratulations!  Looks like it was a good week for both of us.  I hope that you both have a wonderful dinner.

6. I’m so happy to hear this!!!!!  I’m always happy when someone reports receiving their CLN.  But this is Toronto … so I’m double-happy!  After the Calgary, then Halifax, then Montréal CLNs arrived over a period of weeks in June-July, nothing happened in Canada for over a month.  I was looking at the R&R data chart just a day or two ago, and wondered when they’ll get to Toronto or if the train had stalled.  I think I’m in the same batch as Mrs. S.  Great news! 

   You’ve been very supportive to me, and all of us, in this convoluted mess, so it’s a good time to say thanks.  I’m really happy to hear that your lives are now in order (officially and irrevocably). Have a great celebration!

7. @Schubert

   Congratulations. What a wonderful feeling to have this all behind you.

   I hope some of the speed (???) that other consulates have shown will be mimicked soon by the Vancouver consulate. Still unable to figure why on earth they require a second appointment. I am rather sorry that I did not book my appointment in either Calgary or Toronto. I have friends in the Toronto area so could have turned it into a holiday.

8. I was told by the consulate official in Vancouver that I could have my second appointment “in a few days”.  It has been 10 weeks now and I am getting a little frustrated especially since it is apparent that some people have had both their first and second appointment since then.

   I am probably going to be in Mexico in November, does anybody know the policy there?  Could I finish or have a single appointment renunciation while on holiday?.

9. @ Schubert

   My husband still  has miles to go before he sleeps (peacefully) but it’s wonderful to hear that you and your wife are now a happy matching set of CLN’ers. It’s always heartening to read news like yours today. Congratulations and thank you for all your contributions to Brock.

10. Congratulations, Schubert!

11. *Schubert, Congratulation, so happy for you and your wife!!! Time to Celebrate!! Yeah!!!

     

12. Congratulations to you Shubert and your wife on receiving her CLN! Thank you for sharing the details.  I am so happy for you but am now more concerned than ever about receiving mine. I also applied to “relinquish” citizenship at the Toronto consulate. More than 9 months have passed and my CLN still hasn’t arrived.

13. Re:  Shubert, 29 August, 3:02 pm.

    Other good news is this means the backlog in Toronto is starting to clear. I’m puzzled at the lack of information about any of the renunciations that went forward in Toronto back in November or December.

    It seems that for CLN applications, DOS in Washington has divided the world into zones, Canada being one zone.  It seems that Canada CLNs have been backlogged for a long time (a year to get a CLN) whilst the rest of world it takes generally about 1-2 months. I was told in May that Washington was beginning to clear up the Canadian backlog.

    Then in June, we started getting reports of CLNs arriving here, one consulate at a time apparently. They were received at Calgary (June), then Halifax (July), then Montreal (July). It looks like now it’s Toronto’s turn. They seem to arrive in bunches by consulate, but not in chronological order.

    For example, the first, and so far only, Calgary CLNs we know about came in in June. Six people reported receiving their CLNs between June 9th and June 21st.

    The 6 people had filed their CLN applications at the Calgary Consulate between November and May. They received their CLNs in this order: January (CLN received June 9), March (June 12), February (June 13), May (June 15), November (June 16) and February (June 21).

    Hopefully, with them clearing up this Canada backlog, from here on in Canadian CLN applications will not be piled up in Washington, but will be processed as they come in, as has been and is being done with the CLN applications from the rest of the world.

14. *As a Swiss National and (now former) US Citizen living in Switzerland, I made the decision to relinquish out of fear of losing my bank due to FATCA. That plus all the IRS confusion (I could cry just trying to figure out the forms and their language!)
    I heard there was a 1.5 year waiting list in Bern for the process. I e-mailed the Embassy and received a reply immediately, including a copy of the Oath plus a Questionare, just like the one mentioned earlier in this thread. I called the Embassy the next day and to my extreme surprise they offered me an appointment for three weeks later. Apparently there are so many Swiss-US Citizens renouncing that they had to hire extra people! The entire process took exactly one hour from arrival to leaving. I paid the 450 US Dollars/Swiss Francs and then I sat and waited for half an hour to be processed. The Consular was a very nice lady. When she read the renounciation, we both got a small lump in our throats and that was it. I asked her if it was hard for her and she said it was. She told me that she does four renounciations a day. The Swiss Embassy is causing a back log in Washington she told me.
    For those who are considering this process, be assured that it is simple. While it can be a little emotional, it is freeing at the same time. I was also quite angry that the IRS and the US Government has put so much pressure on the Swiss Banks that it has come to this extreme. A friend of my 18 year old who lives in the US, is Swiss and goes to college there. When he was in Switzerland during the summer, his Swiss Bank dropped him as a client because he has a student VISA and lives in the US. I do not blame the Swiss Banks. They find that persons with ties to the US are too much of a risk.
    For me, I am intersted to see what it will be like entering the US as an alien.
    Anyone have experience?

15. @Jer33.3 Thanks for that testimony. We’ve been saying here that the numbers that Treasury is reporting is well below the correct number. I would imagine, given what you’ve said that the one person that you spoke to alone is doing over a thousand expatriations at Bern in a year. (4*52*7=1456 [note see Schubert’s more accurate numbers below). Expatriations are done in consulates all around the world and many others are facing similar backlogs. This puts a lie to the number 189 in Q1 2012–that consular officer who handled your case alone is doing that many expatriations per quarter–and the lie of 1780 expatriations in 2011.

16. @Jer33.3: Thank you for providing your front-line input. I was pleased to learn that the renunciation process went smoothly. Still, it is an unfortunate turn of events to have to renounce your citizenship due to tax complexity and bank account risk. Switzerland is the focal point of the US’s efforts which has made life miserable for most US citizens living here. You did the right thing and many others will follow you to get away of the oppressive US government and its wrong-headed policies. Thanks again for your report.

17. I agree with Petros’ conclusion that, taken at face value, the Bern vice-consul’s figure of four renunciations a day puts a huge lie to the Name and Shame List (or at least indicates there’s a rather significant delay and backlog in reporting on that list).  However the nit-picking statistician in me can’t resist correcting Petros’ specific calculation.  No way is the Bern consulate open 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.  I’d suggest that an upper limit for the vice-consul (upper because this hasn’t likely been going on for twelve months, more likely “only” for the past six or seven as publicity on the issue has ramped up) would be 4*5*48 or 960 cases.  That’s assuming the consulate is open five days a week (some only make appointments three days a week, but I doubt any are open for business seven days a week) and the particular officer probably takes 4 weeks off a year, maybe there’s roughly 20 weekdays in the year when the consulate isn’t open anyway (US national holidays perhaps, Swiss national holidays?  Cantonal holidays?).

    But yes, sounds to me like there should be a hugely bigger number of names in that list, if it includes all CLNs and not just “covered expatriates” actually deemed to have bailed out for tax reasons, even with only Swiss renunciations never mind Canada and other places …

    Gee I wonder if the fact that the US is into an election year and campaign has anything to do with the reporting? Naw, that’s too cyncial even for me 😉

18. @Schubert, right I forgot about weekends and holidays. So around 1000 rounded up. Thanks.

    Still, even with the lower number you have calculated, this officer may be doing as many as 240 per quarter, or more than the entire number that Treasury reported (189) for the entire world. This is total whopper of a statistic. One official in a single consulate in a single city of the world is doing more than the entire number that Treasury reported.

19. Thanks so much, Jer33.3, for your story and the comment from the Consul of “4 renunciations a day”.

    Can I include your information in our Renounce & Relinquish database?
    Date of First Contact
    Date of First Appt. (Date of Second Appt. for some Consulates?)
    Renounce or Relinquish
    Date of Certificate of Loss of Nationality when that is received (which should be the date of your renunciation oath).

    Just to confirm, yours is renunciation, not relinquishment

    Thanks again for the information. Yours is another bittersweet story and could be much different were there residence based US taxation.
    More and more of us living abroad want out freedom from the insanity.

20. Hi Jer33.3,  

    Thanks very much for your report!   I’ll add it to the directory.  Glad to hear all went well and that the wait time for Bern appointments is currently 3 weeks.

    I recall that Rodgrod posted that she visited the US after renouncing at Copenhagen this winter and she had no problem at all entering the US.  Several US-born Canadians have also done so recently (actually a lot of us have been entering the US as aliens for decades, but it’s really the current situation that matters).  So far no one’s posted about having a problem after renouncing or filing formal notice of relinquishment.  

21. *@Petros

    There is a discussion on IBS, where the number of 8854 filings was approximates 12,500

    annually, 10,000 more that the name-and-shame count of expatriates

    for those who are interested the draft 8854 for 2012 is available on line,

    there are seperate instructions for those who expatriated in 2012

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-dft/f8854–dft.pdf

     

     

22. *@Shubert1975: The Embassy is closed on Swiss and US Holidays. Swiss Holidays are maximum 13 a year. I was told by a US Tax Attorney that quite often information gets lost between the 2 departments. 

    @Calgary411: I will gladly give you my information, just tell me how I give it to you. I am so very happy to share my experience. I know the feeling of being intimidated by the IRS. My father is about as American as they get (Vet and all). He is 93. He supported my decision and even went so far as to say that he thinks the IRS is Mafia and they should be investigated by the US Senate. I have not told many American friends of mine and it is none of their business. But my Swiss friends are very proud of me. I am happy to be free. 

23. @Jer33.3,

    Our database is on the link: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/. I just need your input for columns:
    Request (first contact with Consulate)
    1st Appt
    2nd Appt
    CLN Date
    Renounce
    Relinquish
    Notes

    Every entry will help someone else decide what they need to do and this is a snapshot of the times, etc. seen at various US Consulates around the world.

    I’m so glad that your veteran Dad supported you — that says a lot about what is going on. We’re proud of you too — sadly, many of our American friends (homelanders) can’t get their heads around this and don’t at all understand what is going on. We’re here to help one another — we understand each other and what we are all going through.

    Again, thanks for your contribution and I’m glad the ordeal is ending for you.

24. @Patricia – Good catch. Try this URL – I think something in your system munged it while autocorrecting em-dashes: http://1.usa.gov/S5VL4L

25. I was at a birthday party in Switzerland earlier this week and met a Swiss-American there who told me he had lived in the US 35 years, but would be renouncing his US citizenship this week.  He did so.  He gave me permission to post his experience on Isaac Brock.  He said that it took him six weeks to get the appointment.  He has been tax compliant for the last 35 years.

    The text below is what he sent me for posting.

    “It was extremely easy . Everybody was friendly and courteous, from the
    Security Men, to the Clerk that filled out a Form according to my
    Answers, the Cashier who took my Money and the Official who assured
    that I understood the Consequences . It took only a half Hour .

    From my Experience I would recommend the Embassy in Bern.

    No, I do not need to go back, and they assured me that I will have the
    CLN within three Months . They gave me an Info Sheet and a Receipt for
    the CHF 450.- that I paid . They didn’t say any Thing about the IRS and I
    will have to read up in my Paperwork about the last and final Tax
    Return.

    Part of why it went so easily is probably that I filled out very
    carefully all the Forms that they sent me Weeks ago and mailed them
    back right away . So they were prepared.”

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