Ring… Ring…
Secretary: Hello John Culberson’s office.
American abroad: Hello, I am a voter in John Culberson’s district. What is the Congressman’s position on FATCA, FBAR, and Americans abroad?
Secretary: I am not sure. Let me see if Robert is free. He is the legislative director.
Robert: Hello, this is Robert.
American Abroad: Hi Robert, what is your position on FATCA, FBAR, and other provisions that deal with American’s abroad?
Robert: Sorry Sir, I am not sure what those items are. Unfortunately, we don’t have enough time to develop positions on every matter. We focus on just core matters.
American Abroad: Around 6 to 7 million Americans live abroad and they are supporting American companies, products, and services abroad. As you are well aware, 97% of consumers are not located on the United States and America needs Americans abroad to help them battle in the global economy. Non-US banks are now closing Americans’ bank accounts and they are having trouble functioning and feel abandoned by the US.
Robert: So let me get this straight (in a uninterested tone), you are not calling from my district? Are you calling from abroad?
American abroad: Yes, I am but I vote in your district.
Robert: Okay, thank you for your comment. We will note it.
American abroad: Wait, when do you think you will develop a position on FATCA, FBAR, and how we can help Americans abroad have some relief some from the US’s onerous tax rules? Did you read what the Tax advocate service reported to Congress about the IRS’s treatment of Americans abroad? They said that some of the IRS’s rules were in possible violation of the constitution. I cannot understand why a huge amount of Americans receive zero attention! We are 15 times more numerically than Wyoming but yet we have zero voice and you don’t even develop a position on us. You ignore us and haven’t taken a second to even develop a position on us.
Robert: Sir, thank you for your call.
—————————————————————————————————————————————-
Conclusion: Your congressman doesn’t care about you. They don’t even know the legislation they are subjecting Americans abroad to. If they don’t even develop a position paper that means we do not even exist to them. For goodness sakes, they devote pages and pages to whether or not gays should serve in the military but they really could care less if Americans abroad have their bank account closed because what legislation they passed.
Americans, forget about the congressional “outreach” path, it will never work. We have to try to band together to sue our government. Sometimes, that is the only action that can be taken. Americans abroad need a Brown vs. Board of Education court ruling.
Half of this lot had no idea what they even voted on in 2010 when FATCA got through. I expect the new withholding of passports bill to fly through the US House without challenge and for the FEIE exclusion to get through as well as long as Levin & friends can tack it onto something completely unrelated so that it gets through without anyone noticing/caring.
Moral of the story though seems to be: You don’t expatriate when you renounce citizenship; you expatriated the moment you dared to move overseas and leave the promised land!
I’ve read in the Deloitte file that my Congressman (Posey-R-Fla) opposes FATCA and the US’s domestic version of it. Apparently there are quite a few people living in Florida who wouldn’t like their home countries knowing about their bank accounts there. I’ve written to him months ago and as of yet have not gotten a response. Coincidently, just this morning, and before reading your post I wrote to him again. I’ll try to post my letter here shortly.
Treasury’s response to Posey: http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/us/Services/tax/8d974b1baf880310VgnVCM2000001b56f00aRCRD.htm
The FATCA and FBAR is just as applicable to many immigrants who are US citizens living in US but with still strong relational and monetary ties to our native lands, as it is to American expats overseas.
Many of us had bank accounts back home before we even came to the US and well before we became US citizens. Many of us have joint accounts with our parents as a safe-guard for succession.
Is there an organization which brings together all the parties (expats as well as naturalized citizens) who are affected by these ridiculous IRS requirements. Our numbers together will probably give us a better, stronger voice. Can we put up a joint fight? Can we sign any petitions?
FATCA in 2012 is applicable only to Individuals while it will be applicable to FIIs in 2014. Why? So that the IRS can collect names of overseas banks / FIIs etc and accounts from individuals, and then squeeze those FIIs to sign into FATCA or else get rejected for US funds, credit-card usage etc. ? Big Brother wants to know & control everything about you in the Land of the Free !!
@ Steur
Good point you have made. FATCA and FBAR also can affect ‘U.S. Persons’ living on American soil. In fact, I believe the whole thing came about trying to catch ‘tax cheats’ living in the U.S. whowith the help of New York bankers, were hiding monies off shore in foreign banks. All got started with the UBS scandal and is now totally out of control.
However, as I told one of my ‘living in America’ sisters’, “the end does not justify the means”. Too many people are being hurt by this and I doubt they are even catching the ‘tax cheats’ that the law was meant to catch.
In reference to your comment above “Big Brother wants to know and control everything about you in the Land of the Free” – sometime ago, someone on the site said “You have to be brave to live in the land of the Free”.
@Steuer
There is indeed a petition through ACA (American Citizens Abroad). You can sign it here:
http://www.signon.org/sign/repeal-fatca?source=c.em.cp&r_by=188650
Here is their website where you can read more about what they are doing to get FATCA repealed. They recently met with Congressmen and are the most organised and influential group dealing with these issues that I am aware of:
http://www.aca.ch/joomla/index.php
I think you’re right though, FATCA will hit immigrants to the US much harder than it will expats, mainly because the IRS will be able to collect FBAR fines with ease and your numbers are so much greater. There are a few other contributors to the website in your situation (moved to the US and just found out about FBARs and the lot), so you’re in good company here!
BTW very appropriate user name! I assume that you are from Germany or Austria originally – Grüße aus Belgien!
@steuer, FATCA was in fact aimed to catch what is referred to here as “whales” whereas those of us who desire to go about our lives outside the US are the “minnows”.
“IRS Amnesty ship goes fishing for Whales to feed village. Catches lots of Minnows, but few Whales. Processes Minnows like Whales anyway. Claims oil extracted made for a successful fishing trip. Lantern oil in villages is replenished. It was a good and ‘just’ expedition. The press cheer. Now on to other news.”
How dare we have the arrogance to hide our foreign earned income in foreign banks!
For anyone considering filing late FBAR forms you may not want to do electronic filing:
http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Discussion:FBAR_online_filing_-_warning!!!!!
DO A SEARCH OF THE ABOVE LINK, INCLUDING THE EXCLAMATION POINTS — IT COMES UP.
Also as a data point for those interested, I submitted late FBAR forms in June 2010, when there was no OVD program active. I haven’t (yet) heard anything from the IRS about penalties…
The previous link should include the exclamation points in the URL, but wordpress seems to have taken them out. I don’t see any way for me to fix the post.
Everything we are fighting against also applies to Americans in the United States.These are few things everyone is against:
#1 FBAR- Any American that fails to file this form is subjected to backbreaking penalties (even if the American in question does not owe any tax to the IRS). The penalties (for failing to file) are so onerous that many experts argue it violates the 8th amendment of the US constitution. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
For more on how FBAR violates the 8th amendment of the US constitution (from the Jounral of Tax Practice and Procedure)
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0SLTNWDZ3YNDU3OTlhNDEtMmVlYy00YTg2LTg5YjgtYTM3ODIyOGNhY2Y1/edit?pli=1
#2 Form 8938-FACTA- Every American now has to file this if they own anything over $50,000 outside the US.
#3 Taxation based on citizenship- We are against this. Every country in the world works on a “territorial” system. America is the only exception. This cost the United States dearly in term of competitiveness, exports and jobs. Americans in the US are also affected by this rule if they do business abroad and own a stake or have an interest in a foreign corporation.
#4 US citizens abroad have no real representation or voice- Nobody represent our interests in Congress despite the fact that we are 15 times more numerically than Wyoming.
@Gabriel
I can’t fix that link but if you copy it and then search, the page comes up.
I signed up with WordPress, just testing to see what name appears. Sorry for the intrusion.
@Showdown
I like all of the points you have made. With regard to the thresholds for 8938, it is actually a little different. The $50k figure applies to people living in the US.
Outside the US, filing single, you have to have more than $200k on the last day of the year or more than $300k at any time during the year. Filing jointly, you have to have more than $400k on the last day of the year of more than $600k at any time during the year.
You can find these figures at:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8938.pdf
Congress will not listen unless you have some big time lobbyist that cost a few million a year minimum, americans living overseas will the be scapegoats for the problems of the U.S.
The ACA is just not big time enough if you really want to get things change you need to develop an association with a membership in the hundreds of thousands with yearly dues to create any kind of change as your lobbyist will actually have to write the legislation and do all the dirty work behind the scenes.
One former american I understand spent tens of millions to get the DOJ to rule that internet gambling before 2006 was not illegal which was a complete change of heart this last Dec, her partner in the business did not wait and paid $300 million to the U.S. government and also was convicted of a federal crime that is not even a crime anymore, clearly they had some leverage on him as he flew on his private jet to the U.S. to write the check, maybe they had some family members they were going to toss in jail if he did not write the check and plead guilty.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/us/politics/13resign.html — Simple moved to a different firm, but lots of traction it seems.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2011/12/23/department-of-justice-flip-flops-on-internet-gambling/
The U.S. is bankrupt and it will feed off those who scream; no one can hear (at least in the U.S.), renounce your U.S. citizenship if you can.
@everyone an edit function would nice to fix all the typos in my post above.
@Steuer I remember that there was a Mise au Point or Temps Present in 2009 or 2010 that covered a Swiss couple living in the US since 20 years who had kept some inherited money and their own personal savings (apparently all earned legally in Switzerland) in Switzerland without declaring on FBAR. It seems the IRS was fixing to take everything they had because the Swiss bank (I think UBS) had closed their account. They were flabbergasted because they didn’t know about FBAR and/or believed that as the money was Swiss-source income that their Swiss nationality protected them. They were treated like criminals despite the number of Swiss military shooting medals that the old man seemed to have in his room during interview. I would hope that these Swiss would join the Isaac Brock society and provide their input. The only people I would not support are those whose tax home was the US, who earned income there and stashed the income as capital abroad. Even in Switzerland there is an automatic backup withholding (to Switzerland) on interest income in Swiss accounts so for me the key moral issue is whether income tax was paid in the country of residence (drug proceeds, embezzlement, extortion etc are a no-no in my book). If some back taxes on interest need to be paid, this would still not validate the unconstitutional excessive fines imposed by FBAR. (I think it might have been 300% in the case of the Swiss couple above as I think they were ambushed by the IRS before they went into VDP). Phil, if you are reading, maybe you can get us in contact with these people?
@Showdown Was this a real phone conversation? If so, depending upon your feelings about privacy, it might be worthwhile to make a sworn Affidavit and submit it to the ACA. The document would contain a summary of the phone conversation to the best of your recollection, knowledge and belief. This would contribute to proof that our representation in Congress is diminished or nonexistent. The document would be useful for organizations like the ACA (aca.ch). Let’s document Congresspeople’s refusal to communicate with us for the whole world to see. If you don’t want to put your name to it, an anonymous testimonial would still be helpful.
Another suggestion: contact your MP where you live and ask them to make an anonymous inquiry through the foreign ministry in your country of residence. The request would probably be processed as a request for administrative assistance under the Hague Convention. This means that the Foreign Ministry would contact State, and State would forward the complaint to the ambivalent Congressperson. As the US accepts direct service by mail under the Hague Convention (unlike some other Hague Convention signatories) your local MP might be entitled (depending upon local laws and standards) to send an intervention letter directly to your Congressperson. Again, you would have to negotiate the level to which you would reveal your identity, but if you trust your MP and showed them your US voter registration they could vouch for your existence but insist that your exact identity must be confidential in order that you not be subjected to prejudice. If no response was received, your MP could swear in his/her own parliament that your Congressperson snubbed you.
@All Personally, I wrote the entire legislative delegation of my State last year about two issues (using ACA sample letters as a basis but customizing them to fit my own thoughts). Of the two issues, the only answer I got from anyone was about the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations not being fully observed in the US, and the answer was only from one of the 2 Senators and X Congressmen (I prefer to keep my State secret as I am certain that I must be a very controversial figure by now).. No other response from the other members of the delegation on that topic other than to acknowledge my correspondence and that they would answer me soon (soon would have been 6 months ago folks).
I got utterly no response as to the substance of my complaints about FATCA, FBAR, Double Taxation, etc. from anybody in my Congressional delegation.
REMEMBER, THE 1ST AMENDMENT GUARANTEES OUR RIGHT TO PETITION THE AUTHORITIES TO REDRESS GRIEVANCES. ARTICLE 1 SECTION 2 GUARANTEES US PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION. IF OUR CONGRESSPEOPLE WILL NOT EVEN TALK TO US THEN THIS MEANS THAT WE ARE NOT REPRESENTED AT ALL AND THE US GOVERNMENT NO LONGER EXISTS IN ANY LEGITIMATE FASHION (CONGRESS MUST CERTIFY THE ELECTION FOR PRESIDENT, AND THEREFORE THERE IS NO EXECUTIVE BRANCH ANYMORE EITHER.) ONCE ANY OFFICIAL BECOMES AWARE OF THIS THEY MUST EITHER IMMEDIATEY COOPERATE WITH US OR RESIGN. OTHERWISE THEY LOSE ALL LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY.
I don’t want to hear Jeremy Bentham-style “virtual representation arguments” as the discourse leading up to and the outcome of the Revolution rebuked that argument. Maybe I will have time to write y’all a paper on that one of these days.
The conversation took place yesterday. It is 100% real and accurate including the names. I have no problem doing a sworn testimony as I have nothing to hide and am 100% compliant with all IRS rules/regulations. The US system needs to change so it can help all Americans. We need to switch to a territorial tax system like all other developed countries. This is not a radical idea, it is the standard rule around the world.
EVERYONE needs to pick up the phone and call their local congressman (call their DC office). They hardly get any calls and they will pick up right away (ask to talk to the legislative assistant). Ask them their opinion on FBAR, FACTA, and their policy on American citizens abroad. Remind them that we are 16x more numerous than Wyoming and yet their is no official policy on us. President Obama wants to increase US exports dramatically but how can he achieve this without American abroad fighting for contracts, purchase orders, and business opportunities.
I look forward to hearing other members reports on what their congressman or legislative director says. Don’t be afraid, voicing your opinion is not a crime!
Disheartening isn’t it? I can well imagine that conversation. I’ve perused the websites of my Congresswomen and find nothing that even indicates that they are aware of the 100,000+ overseas registered voters in their state. Boggles the mind, doesn’t it? My revenge was to give a campaign contribution to the opponent of one of those Congresswomen but even that turned out to be harder that I imagined. 🙂
@Showdown… cool, if you could do a sworn testimony and post it it would be great. Perhaps you could also do a press release to Canadian and US press networks. If we can get this stuff repealed then we can start working on getting previously-compliant people some restitution (far away at the end of a very long tunnel, but we can’t forget the damage already done to compliant people).
@Victoria I bet they didn’t want to accept a “foreign” campaign contribution? Good Grief, Charlie Brown.
Reblogged this on Stop Unconstitutional Double Taxation.
Ignorance by congresspeople of the laws they vote for is not an excuse.
Someone (Victoria I think) mentioned in this forum that if we have the chance we should visit our congressional reps and explain what we would like changed. I happen to be on a long road trip in the US and found that it is also very easy to visit the home offices of Congresspeople who are not my reps.
I have been concentrating on members of Congress who are on the House W&M and who should have at least some understanding of our problems, as this committee will supposedly be reviewing proposals for residence based taxation.
So far I have visited the home offices of Sandy Levin (Michigan) and Danny Davis (Chicago). I explain very briefly the difficulties we have and then summarize several proposals that could help, and follow up with material and my own written submission. At a minimum, my letter will be sent on to the Congressperson in DC—I just received a phone call from Davis’ Director of Communications/Issues promising me that the Congressman would read my submission.
I also stopped by Carl Levin’s Michigan office and provided Blaze’s “open letter” and “simple premise.” I explained why we feel the way we do about Carl Levin.
None of this may make any difference, but as I am still a US citizen I want to register my complaints.
IRSCompliantForever,
I admire your determination, and thank you for your efforts.