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Em…
Well, I don’t know what type of printer you have, but I find the cost of printing out the forms I need as negligible, so I can’t imagine going through $50 of ink, unless you are trying to print each instruction booklet, or you have a Tax return the size of GE at 57,000 pages. 🙂
Either your tax filing life is way more complicated than mine, or you have a printer with too expensive print cartridges, but I don’t find it an issue for me personally. There are a lot of things I resent about filing US taxes, but printing out the required form is the least of my concerns, but that is just me.
mvh
@Em
It is annoying to have to print all those forms, i know. But the forms are actually PDF’s that you can download, save, fill out on line save some more and print when you are ready. Aside from the annoying fact that it gets the IRS off the hook for having to send you any, it’s actually quite convenient. You can just print the pages you need. You don’t have to print the instructions, pages with no information, etc.
I actually have my last years FBARs saved. i just went in and changed the maximaum amounts. (I see there is a new form this year, but it has the same questions, so it should be OK) And there may be some forms you need more than one copy of, so even if you got sent the forms, you might have to make more copies. I needed two 1116’s. Just fill out the identifying data on one, then copy it, and the second form is already partialy completed.
My tax form was 34 pages, including FBAR’s and 8938’s. Yes I minded having to use the ink to print them, but that seems to be the way everything is going these days. And it’s really not that expensive compared to a trip to the US.
A $50 ink cartridge is an issue when it’s a 200 mile drive to get a replacement. Perusing a printed booklet is more efficient (for us at least) than scrolling through hundreds of pages of a pdf or using a search engine which will seldom deliver something you might not even know you should be looking for. We are old foggies on a tight budget but we’ll manage this somehow. We are discussing renounciation but it will be for reasons other than “paperwork reduction”, of course. ; )
Em…. Understand. One does get use to doing things in the manner you have become accustom. I have long ago moved on from needing paper, but like a reading a Newspaper, some like it folded in their hands with black ink on your fingers, and some like me like reading online. BTW, you can always order ink from Amazon much cheaper than a 200 mile drive. 🙂
Does anyone have any info on whether the IRS has issued the new guideline for duals citizens as promised, and long overdue…? I have not been able to find anythign other than the Dec. fact sheet.
@Howard. Haven’t seen it either. The Titanic changes course slowly in response to commands from the wheelhouse.
Just Me….I’m a landed immigrant who has not ever applied for Canadian citizenship. I have a U.S. passport and have been here since 1975. Learning about all this (late!) should I be filing returns since there is no new info…no deadline? Appreciate your thoughts…
@retired and scared.
I would be in a wait and see mode, regarding the additional information that has been promised. Although it is possible it will never be forth coming, or will be just a restatement of exist statutes repackaged so it can claim to be something it is not!
In the meantime, I would relax a bit and allow yourself time to digest all the information that is available on this site before making any decisions on what to do.
The IRS is definitely on a jihad against Expats overseas, but…. you have a lot of friends here who can help you assess your risk or provide alternate strategies.
Have you read this…?
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/01/10/press-release-isaac-brock-society/
What I wouldn’t do yet, is run to a Practitioner, as they will certainly scare into doing things that might be against your best self interest. You have to be very selective at who you choose, and you need a good information base before you can assess the so called “experts” and whether or not you can trust their advice. It is a buyer beware world with them. You need time for education drudgery, and you are at a good site to learn that.
More on the drudgery aspect of self education is here.
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/01/28/the-ovdi-drudgery-for-minnows/
On Isaac Brock, you are amongst a lot of Canadian friends, and will find some differing opinions as to how to progress now. Some are strong ones about what you “shouldn’t do”, but ultimately you are in no position yet to decide! A lot depends on your facts and your connection back to the US. IE, family, assets, accounts etc. So, I won’t provide generalized advice, other than to encourage you to read things here in a systematic manner and be deliberate in your decision making. Don’t let fear drive any decision.
Once you get enough education to fully understand the issues, then you might want to consult with a good practitioner, but NOT YET!!
One part of your consideration is whether or not US citizenship is so valuable to you that you are willing to pay the cost to become compliant with the rules? I can’t answer that for you.
If you feel Canadian, through and through now, and have no plans of ever returning to the US, then you might look at renouncing your citizenship and be free of all the fear and complexity. Many Expats are discussing that actively here. I don’t follow the pros and cons that closely, as I am in NZ, and returning to the States next month. However, you might want to read through all the discussion. There is a lot of it.
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/01/13/ask-your-questions-about-renunciation-and-relinquishment-of-united-states-citizenship-discussion-thread/
Hope some of this helps. Figure a good month of your time to get better familiar with the issues involved in your decisions, and don’t be rushed into filing tax returns and FBARS yet until you are fully informed of the consequences.
Fortunately, you are in a good country with a lot of protections against Congresses/IRS extraterritorial reach so relax and let the education begin…
Hope this helps.
@Just Me
You are a saint. Each time I see a new ‘scared’ person new to the site, you post such good, calming advice. Bravo!
Thanks. I just remember, I would have liked to have some of that back in 2009! LOL
You bring tears to my eyes with your immediate and calming response….thank you so much. I have been on Isaac Brock for awhile now and read alot and will continue to. I do have a sister in Boston and, of course, friends, but i intend to apply for citizenship now and hopefully when it comes, I will not renew U.S. passport due in 2014. I have no bank accounts or business in U.S. but applied for social security benefits due me that I am now receiving. I had no idea about all this at the time! I just didn’t know whether to act and file and your response to basically continue to wait and see and educate myself is great. It’s just the site can also be scary with the more complicated situations people write about.
Just me I’m responding to your answer to retired and scared, which is me. Swanee66 – I’m new to this…sorry
@retired and scared.
My advice would be to begin the process of applying for Canadian citizenship, so as to have choice and options. There is no downside and no cost. Organize all your paperwork (birth cert, landed immigrant paperwork, etc) in one place to do this.
It can take up to two years to receive Canadian citizenship, so start the process now – you can always change your mind at any point along the way.
All the forms and info are on the Canadian government website:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship
I suggest you go to the constituency office of your local Member of Parliament for assistance and advocacy in applying for Canadian citizenship. This is core competency for most MP’s staff and they can be very helpful. If you have any special circumstances – such as a medical condition – they may be able to assist in speeding things up a bit.
The advice against hasty action or otherwise spending a lot of $$ for lawyers or accounts is good.
@retired and scared
You refer to receiving social security benefits that were your due. Please do not worry that because you receive those benefits, things are worse for you. There are many Canadians who live in Canada and receive social security benefits from the US and others who receive retirement benefits from other countries, they might have lived and worked in at one time. This is their right and the tax treaties determine the taxation of those benefits in both countries.
I agree with Wondering. You should start the process of Canadian citizenship. As Just Me recommends read as much as you can on this site and then make a determination on how to move forward. You will be protected by the Canadian government.
Social security. Last week I had a chance conversation with a never-before-met US-Canada dual citizen. That person is receiving US social security and intending to stay off the IRS filing radar because noncompliant. That gave me a brain chuckle. (I think straight face persisted.) I’m guessing there is total disconnect between SS and IRS, perhaps because SS is nontaxable? Also the person had little interest in severance of citizenship from fear of loss of the SS. A newly minted non-US citizen would continue to receive SS – or is that vague impression wrong? Lots of wrinkles on this page of the saga.
Hi Everyone – I just wanted to give an update as to my “progress” in shedding my U.S. person status. In spite of the fact I relinquished my U.S. citizenship about 40 years ago, I applied for relinquishment and a CLN last November. Then I filed U.S. tax forms to the for the past five years with a covering letter of explanation. I just received three separate “Amount due” notices from the IRS. I owe $0 for 2009 and $84.00 for each year of 2007 and 2008. Most of that is interest and “failure to file” fees. I have not received notice regarding the other two years. This charge was made in spite of a tax loss carried forward. My inclination is to send them a check and hope for the best. No CLN has arrived yet, but I remain hopeful.
@usxcanada
I have a neighbor who will fall under the catagory of ‘newly minted non US citizen’, who continues to receive his Social Security benefits. It was confirmed by his cross border tax attorney that it would not be a problem; he is entitled to the social security from his years of working in the U.S. prior to coming to Canada 45 years ago.
… and vice-versa, http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agreement_Pamphlets/canada.html
@wondering and @tiger
thank you for good info for me retired and scared Swanee66 – I will gather my paperwork and apply for citizenship. Good to know about social security protection regardless. I am traveling to Chicago in May and in reading blogs sort of concerned about border questioning. The number one worry is that there is a deadline for filing that I’ll get in trouble for if I don’t do something NOW. Thank God I found you all.
@swanee66
Traveling to Chicago should not be a problem. As you are not yet a Canadian, you won’t be travelling on a Cdn. passport with an American place of birth. I think for the few people who are getting hassled at the border, it is most likely those who show a US birth place and are not travelling on a US passport.
@tiger
Your neighbor is playing a dangerous game. The IRS is especially focusing on international retirees, and SS is taxable.
Also, BIG DATA is the theme of the century for business and the IRS. Connecting data bases to find out information on you either to sell you productions or track you down. The IRS will surely try to find out those with SS payments and foreign addresses just like they are doing with retirement accounts. Maybe he is just showing a US address, but they are on a mission, so hopefully he wins the death lottery and goes before they find him. 🙂 He is not below the radar any more. They know there are millions of him out there and they want him!!!
http://www.irs.gov/retirement/article/0,,id=223461,00.html
Sorry Tiger… my delayed response was to usxcanada in relation to the APRIL 5, 2012 AT 2:29 PM comment. I am behind in my reading!! 🙂
Has anyone been requested by the IRS to include an ‘Employer Identification Number’ on for 3520-A? I used 3520-A for a TFSA, which I closed in March of 2011, to document the TFSA.
At this link the IRS gives an explanation who may need an EIN. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=97872,00.html
The interesting thing is that this letter was originally sent to my branch of the Royal Bank here in Calgary, AB. The IRS letter was forwarded to me through the Royal Bank and not in the original IRS envelope. I guess the Royal bank didn’t want to touch this.
I’m assuming that because a TFSA is seen as a trust in the US I may need a EIN for the Royal Bank. Can this be right?
I have a question about the 3520 and 3520-A – for example, in the case of TFSAs, RESPs, RDSPs, as well. The 3520 seems to be even more of a devil than the FBAR in terms of statute of limitations, and potential penalties. Does anyone know more about it?
Minister Flaherty specifically spoke about FBARs, but in light of the IRS not recognizing the TFSAs, RESPs, RDSPs, and the proposed PRPPs (pooled? registered pension plans) – these are all potentially toxic to have going forward – and he should have addressed the 3520 as well if he is going to encourage those in Canada to buy them. Is it similar to the FBAR in terms of whether it is Bank Secrecy Act, or similar to what governs the returns?
@badger @itacaf
Boy, is this an area that I hold NO expertise…
I have no answers for any of the questions you both ask…
I am commenting only because I just saw this at Phil Hodgen’s blog and hoped you did too… He seems pretty knowledgeable about these issues.
http://hodgen.com/how-the-irs-can-make-rrsp-cleanups-painless/
Additionally, I know he has commented a lot about 3520s, and fortunately for me, that was a minefield I avoided…
Also, I see under the search function he has a lot of posts on the RRSPS…
http://hodgen.com/category/rrsp/
and then you can also do a search on 3520s…
http://hodgen.com/?s=3520
cheers