Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
🙂 Sorry Calgary 411….I feel your pain, just when you think you have cleared up one scenerio, another one pops up. Gives you that sickening feeling all over again. I can see myself being detained at the border, all because my mom is a US citizen and shame on me for not claiming my right and filing taxes to a country i will never live in. Arrrgg!!!
As for your son, I agree with the others as he is the same as me, if they are going to go through all the steps to prove we are, we can tell them to HAVE FUN! I hear the prison system has nice rooms and 3 meals a day. LOL.. (Sorry, have to have a joke somewhere)
I will be watching this thread with interest to see if anyone receives a back-dated CLN. If anyone does, I hope they will post here!!
@ recalcitrantexpat
I was wading through all the Acts that relate to the expat tax; talk about confusing. However, unfortunately, I believe I came across the answer to your question:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/f8854–1999.pdf
very sorry to post this. 🙁
@bushwhacker
I wish I could remember who it was but someone recently posted that in Toronto, without asking, he was told the CLN was backdated. Will try to find that.
@bushwhacker
To repeat a point I’ve made elsewhere, State has little choice for relinquishment cases but either to backdate your CLN to the date you committed the expatriating act, or to deny a CLN on the grounds that the preponderance of evidence you submitted doesn’t support your claim that you committed your act with the intent to relinquish (most likely, because you applied for a US passport afterwards, which they will check for on their passport records, or maybe voted in a US election – not sure whether or how they’d know that but if you did, that would likely undermine your case bigtime).
For what it’s worth today, in late 1976 I received a CLN that was “backdated” (said I had “self-expatriated” by becoming a foreign citizen) to the date of my Canadian citizenship oath about 14 months earlier – which was 10 months prior to when I signed the declaration form that preceded the current form DS-4079 that one now fills out).
Also the assistant secretary of the US treasury for tax policy (essentially the IRS) submitted a report to the US Congress in 1998 in which he admitted in writing that State has to date CLNs from the date in which you committed the actual expatriating act, not when you tell State about it nor when they issue the CLN. The reference is here, go down to page 30 and read the text in the final paragraph and footnote 26.
http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Documents/tax598.pdf
This document and past precedent, if nothing else, would provide support for a legal challenge if State tried to date your CLN in 2012 instead of when you committed the action (of course, if your renounce rather than relinquish the date will be when you signed the renunciation oath in 2012).
It would be nice, if one is a bit paranoid, to hold out for a more recent example, and I agree the first person to get a CLN this year that is dated from the expatriating act and not 2012 would be very welcome to tell us that for added comfort. But I wouldn’t lose sleep over this, especially given what Johnnb was told yesterday at the Halifax consulate as reported above in this thread.
Sorry am having trouble editing my last post, wording a bit unclear — I became Cdn on date X, signed the declaration form on date X+10 months (the form was mailed to me by the embassy after I’d written an anti-war screed to Kissinger on X+8 months telling him among other things that I had taken out Canadian citizenship and had thereby relinquished my USC), and was sent my CLN on date X+14 months — the CLN had two approval dates, one from the Vice Consul at the Embassy on date X+11.5 months and one from the Director of the Passport Office in Washington (yes they do check passport files!) on date X+13.5 months.
Time lags in johnnb’s case obviously will be significantly longer than in mine, but there’s nothing in any legislation, regulation or report that I’ve seen that says that State can play games with the dating after a certain period of time.
Thats ridiculous that it takes that long for you all to receive your CLN! Like how much do they have to prove when they get the peperwork on their end. Do they really research if your facts are correct to the point its that time consuming.
@Inanightmare — You are right, everyone is right, the Taxpayer Advocate Service is right — we should not have to pay these huge legal and tax accounting fees to get the supposed US portion of our lives in order, keep in compliance, etc.
For instance, could the US Consulate in Calgary or the US Embassy in Ottawa (where that nice US Ambassador to Canada hangs out) not have told me, could the IRS not have told me, etc., etc., for I did ask and ask again and again — that my son, if he was born in Canada, raised in Canada, never registered with a US Consulate as a US citizen, never received any benefit from the US, WOULD NOT have to get a social security number to put him into the US system in order to do five years of back US income tax returns for which he would owe $0.00 to have the right to be able to renounce his US citizenship — that is if he had the perceptual capacity to do so, which he doesn’t, so he couldn’t as he doesn’t understand it all. Don’t bloody tell me when I ask and ask and ask that they’ll allow some extra time to discuss it with me on my first appointment for renunciation — and by the way, even with a court order, I would not be able to renounce my son’s citizenship on his behalf.
Does anyone in the DOS or the IRS have a lick of sense? Guess we’ll soon see. Thursday, a mere two days from now, is January 26th — will Commissioner Shulman have some instructions / news that we can actually use when he, hopefully, chooses a response that makes sense for us, the US persons abroad, for the US itself and the strength of her economy, for Nina Olson and the TAS?
So I finally received an email back from an embassy. They indictaed in a long drawn out email that if you were born between this period and this period..this applies…and if you were born between this period and this period…this applies….Oh…and dont forget if you were born in or out of wedlock this applies. And then stated I would have to claim my citizenship to renounce it. So…UMMM…I dont think so! Its 600.00 I saw for one form and plus a trip to the US, then to the embassy in Canada to renounce and pay another 450.00. This is absurd! Hopefully they wake up soon and realize we are not made of money up here and to to the “right” thing, we would have to be wealthy and ini fact tax evaders with that kind of money. I cannot even afford a pleasurable vacation let alone numerous ones for this nonsense.
Hi All,
I have applied to become a Canadian Citizen just a few weeks ago. I have a question:
Does it mean that if I were to perform the act of relinquishment, I could not use my US passport from here on out?
Reason I am asking is because I only hold a US passport at the moment and it would be nearly impossible for me to not use the US passport to travel to other places.
Thanks
@Inanightmare — Thanks for the quick answer (which you didn’t know fit right in with my coment), substantiated by your long, drawn-out email from an embassy (or US Consulate) — they don’t have a lick of sense!
@biglemoncoke. Get that important Canadian citizenship as quickly as you can. In the meantime, read extensively the information on this site.
You may come to the conclusion, as many of us have, that your new Canadian citizenship, a Canadian passport and a Certificate of Loss of Nationality from the US to accompany that Canadian passport are your most valued documents. But, each person has to decide for his or herself what is best for them.
And, yes, a US passport and a relinquishment or renouncement of US citizenship are not compatible.
Good luck in your research and welcome to Isaac Brock Society, a site where you can ask the many questions you will have in your quest and get support from many trying to make their own decisions. Godspeed.
Calgary 411, I love that, lol.
That gives me my answer, Im not going to waster my time with this. If they cannot make this an easier process and more affordable being I never claimed it, and dont want it…..just thought I would legally do the right thing for the IRS sake and their legal terms of we are coming after everyone who even just has the right of US Citizenship…But in all fairness, I imagine there are thousands and thousands of us that CAN claim US citizenship, even with US grandparents and such.
and excuse my typing errors, I clearly cannot type either! Thanks for everyones feedback on this, it was weird to get that email finally as I have waited for over a month already! Good luck everyone!
@Inanightmare — but do stay tuned to this site, for I have no legal expertise, I’m just a mom, trying to advocate for her son, appeal for some common sense. Hasn’t done me a whole lot of good so far. Good luck — and, really, do monitor this site — there is a lot of good information that will cross your path and help you with what is best for you. And a lot of good people to support you — very important!!
I will indeed Calgary 411….It will give me some relief tonight sleeping now (I’m still a bit uneasy though and will be sure to stay tuned to what unfolds over the next while) Good luck with your son and finding out that information, keep us all posted 🙂
@calgary411,
Just to clarify, I submitted my application for canadian citizenship with the full intent of relinquishing my status as an american.
At the end of the day, I would wish to relinquish my status rather than renouncing. Does this mean that I should not use my US passport when I travel? That is the only means to travel right now as my application has not been completed or processed yet. My only means to travel to another country would be my US passport.
I read that even using the US passport would be enough for them to deny my right to relinquish my status as an American and that I would have to renounce instead.
Thanks
Your relinquishment would be dated from your citizenship oath, not the application for citizenship. So the problem would only arise between your being naturalized and getting your Canadian passport.
@biglemoncoke — I am not qualified to answer your question on the use of your US passport while you are waiting for your Canadian citizenship and then your Canadian passport. I don’t know how long a period that will be for you or how much travelling you have to do. I would be inclined to get a legal opinion — I doubt you’ll get any answer from Department of State at a US Consulate (where you would think they could easily answer such a question).
All I know is I wish that I never applied for and received my first US passport (after I was told at the border the next time I travelled to the US, I was to enter on a US passport, not the Canadian passport that I had used all my previous times). I am / was easily intimidated — I also took advice from a respected cross-border accounting firm that I had to file back US tax returns, that I was still a US citizen. If I had, instead, gotten legal advice from the US immigration lawyer that I talked to early in 2011, I would have a different story now — of possible relinquishment, which I was warned was happening when I became a Canadian citizen in 1975. I lived in Canada from March 1975 until early 2008, absolutely believing that I had relinquished my US citizenship and was only a Canadian. My subsequent actions did me in!
Why the US could change the rules on us; why the US let this situation ride as they did for decades — and does that have any relevance?; why we are now being hit with all of the tax compliance overreach that citizenship-based taxation brings, OVDI, etc. and labelled TAX EVADER, as one of my husband’s aunt’s would say — IS A PUZZLEMENT.
calgary411 Good luck! Please keep us posted.
I recently learned of IRS filing requirement and completion of FBAR forms frightens me, to role the dice and hope someone determines I demonstrated reasonable cause for not filing. Ambassador Jacobson’s reassurance to Canadians that US are not out to get grandma does not trump decisions of IRS. It’s like volunteering to accept a glass of kool-aid and hope I don’t get the one with the poison.
My concern is about Voluntary relinquishment of US citizenship
My background and questions:
Born in US in 1950, Registered as Canadian Born Abroad by Cdn father in 1952.
I applied to retain Canadian Citizenship in 1973. and it was granted – sometime after June 1973. Certificate of Citizenship (card) is numbered, not dated.
Received first Canadian Passport in 1973 – Current one expires in 2016.
Worked for Cdn Fed Govt 20+ years.
Swore allegiance to Canada/Queen (on bible) in 1988.
Security Clearance is Secret.
Voted in Canada.
Never a resident of US, lived in US with parents 1950-54 and 1963-67.
Resided in Canada as a student or employee from 1954-1963 and from 1967 until present (retired).
Obtained a US social security number in 1966/67.
Cannot recall definitively, but may have filed returns with IRS for summer job earnings over 6 years (68-73) while living with parents. I have no current record of SS# or IRS returns.
Was issued a US military draft card in 1968.
When I lost my student exemption in 1971/72, I received notification to report for induction while I was living in Canada. I did not report – sent them a copy of my Canadian Birth Abroad certificate and I was subsequently labelled as “currently ineligible to be drafted”. Nothing ever transpired (no copies) never any issue crossing border, dozens of times since.
Do not hold / never held a US passport.
Never resided in US (other than with parents as a student).
Never voted in US at any level of government.
I assume that I am/was American Citizen due to birthplace but …
Have certain actions / non-actions of mine (above) already demonstrated voluntary relinquishment of US Citizenship? (birth abroad, oath, vote, passport)
Must I prove this at a US Consulate office State Dept? I have always assumed I was a Canadian citizen and always identified myself as such.
If yes, is loss of citizenship back-dated to date of the voluntary relinquishment action?
If not, must I still file 6 yrs of 1040’s? Not a showstopper (except for cost of CA, approx $1K / return) BUT STRONG objection to FBAR filing.
Re FBAR, not anxious to role dice and hope they do not apply a penalty on my savings, plus my wife is 110% Cdn and NOT interested in providing her personal details on FBAR form.
OR, since the environment is ever changing (i.e. US Tax Advocate comments Jan 19), is it simply best to not do anything at this time? I would like to enjoy easy access to US for future winter getaways and to visit relatives.
Thank you in advance
http://renunciationguide.com/Rights-After-Expatriation.html
There is a lot of reading for you to do on this site (read all that Shubert1975 has posted), on http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/ and on http://renunciationguide.com/Rights-After-Expatriation.html, which states:
“The most important point we can make:
After renunciation, you have the same rights vis-a-vis the United States as any other citizen of your country.”
All this reading and getting some PROPER legal advice because the US does not give us the answers we need.
Your name says it all — that is a common problem! I wish you and your wife the best of luck in your search for information on possible relinquishment.
@cannot sleep I think perhaps your taking of Canadian citizenship in 1973 shows that you have relinquished your US citizenship. Take a look at the following posts: Relinquish US Citizenship don’t renounce, if you can
Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995?
Did you commit a relinquishing act with the intention of losing US citizenship? Actions speak louder than words
@cannotsleep I agree with Petros. Especially since your SSN was obtained before 1973; considered ineligible for draft (do you still have that card, just in case?). I don’t think they can consider your birth as something you did as a means to demonstrate USC. You have never voted and never had a passport. It sounds like you are in a strong position.
Blaze:
You said:
Petros, do you know how confirming our relinquishment will affect how long how many days we can be in US per year? I’ve read somewhere we’re restricted to 30 days per year.
See this:
The alternative tax regime does not apply to any individual for any taxable year during the 10-year period following citizenship relinquishment or residency termination if such individual is present in the United States for more than 30 days in the calendar year ending in such taxable year. Such individual is treated as a U.S. citizen or resident for such taxable year and, therefore, is taxed on his or her worldwide income. (p. 38)
TECHNICAL EXPLANATION OF H.R. 6081, THE “HEROES EARNINGS ASSISTANCE AND RELIEF TAX ACT OF 2008,” AS SCHEDULED FOR CONSIDERATION BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ON MAY 20, 2008
Source at http://www.jct.gov/x-44-08.pdf
That appears to mean: For 10 years following relinquishment, no more than 30 days of presence possible in any one year, without becoming taxable for that year. But that gobbledygook is only for lawyers to make sense of – or argue about.