Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@Arrow: My wife and I slid our original citizenship certificates across to the official in Halifax, he made a photocopy and slid them back – as they did with all our documentation except for the forms. It really was hassle free.
@ Arrow,
Thank you for the name of the lawyer and all of your other very useful information. I have no doubt it will help many of us on the IBS. Please keep us posted on visits to the consulate etc.
Your company has relieved some of the misery! Thank you to the founder and contributors.
My situation is similar to Greenwood’s above. I was born in the US of Canadian parents in 1953. My parents registered me with Canada as being born abroad and when my father completed his studies, the family returned home to Ottawa. I think I was three. Other than tourist trips of a few days at a time, that was my last contact with the US. I have never had a US passport or SSN, voted or worked there. I have happily lived my life as a Canadian.
I have long been aware that birth in the States meant I might be able to claim US citizenship but, my feeling was that since I had never taken any formal steps to do so, my US citizenship was “inactive”. It seems the US government may disagree.
Pulling a “full ostrich” might be the wisest course but I have had small incidents at the border in the past and wonder about bigger ones in the future. It’s ironic that before, the guards were fearful I might be going to claim my US citizenship and now I am fearful they are going to do it!
It seemed I had no option but to try to get into “compliance” no matter how expensive and onerous a task it was. That’s really galling when I don’t feel I’ve ever been American. So finding your site with hope for other approaches and the stories of other people going through the same shock has been a wonderful relief.
I don’t see how I could renounce something I don’t feel I ever had, but the idea of relinquishing any claim in the future makes sense. My problem is that, unlike many of you who immigrated to Canada, I may not have a specific event I can point to as being a decision to choose between citizenships. There were a couple of low level government of Canada jobs but they didn’t involve an oath. I did receive a certificate of Canadian citizenship in the 80’s, there might have been an oath on the application form but I can’t recall. I don’t suppose they would take a lifetime without a claim on the rights of an American (nor the fulfillment of an American’s duties) as meaning I really belonged to another bunch?
@Cdn Bred
You don’t need to have any particular event to renounce. “Relinquishing” and “renouncing” are different paths to the same thing. You “relinquish” by having done something that causes you to “lose” your US citizenship (ie taking an oath to another country with the intention of giving up US citizenship), although for some people who have done it in the past, proving it is the problem. Relinquishing in the distant past, if you can prove it, might give you relief from some of the tax compliance stuff. There seems to be a lot of debate, and I’m not sure if it’s been sorted out yet.
To renounce, you go to the consulate, tell them you don’t want your US citizenship any more, and pay your $450. They usually make you have 2 visits. Just make sure you are up to date on your tax forms, because you then have to complete a form that says you were compliant with the IRS.
I haven’t done it yet. The Tax stuff is the real hold up. But that’s what supposed to happen.
Cdn Bred Whatever you do, DO NOT do anything to give them the idea that you are interested in being an American. The full ostrich is appropriate for you. OR you could go to a consulate and tell them you intentionally ,voluntarily and deliberately obtained Canadian citizenship with the intention of giving up your US citizenship. at that time, they tolerated dual citizenship but if you INTENDED to give up US citizenship and have no ties they really have to give you a certificate of loss of nationality. Write it up, get it notarized and hand it to the consul. It won’t even cost you the $450.
But even without a CLN you are Canadian and Canadian only.
There is an excellent summary here
http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/article3.htm
Scroll down to “losing it-giving it up” If you feel a need to have a CLN, print it out, compose your letter, get it notarized, give it to the consul- Bob’s your uncle, You have no need to do anything else as your relinquishment was early enough to avoid any tax filing obligations.
@CanuckDoc and KalC
Thank you for the advice. Regarding this issue as simply a bump on the road of life and calmly working to get past it is probably the most logical and best route. Since I don’t think I would owe any US taxes and the costs to prove that and the $450, while painful, would not bankrupt me, that best route would probably be through renouncing. However, I must still be at the denial/ anger stage because that would feel like cooperating with my kidnappers.
While I am not one of the “accidentals” because my birth was in the States, I think my position is similar. The United States can not ask me to perform the duties of a citizen when I have never, not once, accepted their offer of citizenship by asking for any of the benefits or priveleges of a citizen. Oops, I am starting to rant.
Anyway, I have an appointment at the Embassy next week. We will see what they have to say.
PS That is a very clear and well written summary. The IRS should hire the author.
@Cnd Bred: Please let us know what the Embassy says.
Yes, it would be wonderful if IRS would hire writers who would write clearly in easily understood language. Unfortunately, that is far too much to ask of their 72,000 page Tax Code. If it was simple and easy to understand, that would put too many bureaucrats, accountants and lawyers out of work.
Cdn Bred: It’s probably worth talking to a lawyer about relinquish vs renounce. I’m not sure your citizenship certificate (achieved through a simple application?) qualifies as an expatriating act — but the lawyer could give you some useful advice on that.
But consider this before you renounce. If you try the relinquish route it may well do the trick, and save you $450 and a lot of hassles with the IRS. If it doesn’t work, you can still renounce. Best to run that thought by the lawyer, too.
Personally, I’m not going to do ANYTHING that grants the US the jurisdiction it now claims. The furthest we will go is to ask for the CLN by submitting the paperwork needed to document an expatriating act committed in 1974. If that doesn’t work, Plan B is to ignore them entirely and avoid any travel to the US. I haven’t got a strategy for FATCA yet (beyond transferring our RRSP accounts to a local credit union), but I’m hopeful that my government will do something to make that unnecessary
Arrow, Under the current FATCA proposals, your RRSP will be exempt from the Fatcat reporting requirement.
@Cdn Bred
Arrow has given good advice re trying to relinquish before you go the renounce route. The worse that can happen is they say no, you have to renounce. I believe that is what happened to Nobledreamer at the Toronto Consulate.
@Arrow
I think you have a good plan. Apply for the CLN but do not follow through with any forms/returns etc to IRS. Just as Johnnb did at the Halifax consulate. Regarding the strategy for FATCA, if the letter from the Canadian Bankers Association, posted on the weekend by Blaze is correct, local credit unions will also have to comply with FATCA (unless they only take deposits and issue loans). My hope regarding FATCA (if it does not get changed) is that I can prove to any financial institution that I am not a U.S.person even if I do not get the official CLN.
@KalC
I believe you are incorrect regarding RRSP’s being exempt. I posted yesterday that I was told by a Senior Vice President of a financial institution that the RRSP’s that are exempt are those that are considered “Defined Contribution Pension Plans” and no individual has more than a 5% interest in the plan. These types of plans are more and more frequently being used by small businesses, private schools and even many companies who do not have defined benefit pension plans.
Petros posted information in another thread a few weeks ago about possible alternative ways to confirm to banks that we are not “US persons:
http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/02/11/is-a-certificate-of-loss-of-nationality-really-necessary-new-fatca-regulations-are-in-gobbledygook/
This includes the following from IRS:
A withholding agent may also treat the individual payee as a foreign person, notwithstanding the U.S. birth place, if the withholding agent obtains a non-U.S. passport or other government-issued identification evidence of citizenship in a country other than the United States and either a copy of the individual’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or Form I-407, or a reasonable explanation of the account holder’s renunciation of U.S. citizenship or the reason the account holder did not obtain U.S. citizenship at birth.
The way I read this is those of us who are citizens of other countries can provide a non-US passport or other “government-issued identification evidence in a country other than the United States” and either a CLN or “reasonable explanation of the account holder’s renunciation of US citizenship…” as confirmation we are not “US persons,”
I am assuming a “withholding agent” may be our bank which could be required to withhold funds from our accounts, but I admit I am not certain of that.
Other government issued ID would address the concern that not everyone has a passport. This would seem to mean documents such as a citizenship certificate.
I will continue to fight that, under Canadian law, I am not and should not be required to provide any information about my place of birth to my financial institution. But, the possibility that other confirmation than a CLN may be accepted could mean I can stay as far away from Consulate as I can.
Because this topic is also being hotly discussed on the class action thread, I am going to cross post there.
@Blaze
I opened an account at TD this morning and offered proof that I was no longer a “US person”
I was told they had no reporting obligation because I was a Canadian citizen.
I just booked an appointment at the US consulate in Vancouver for 9:30 am March 16. I did it online after spending several fruitless minutes on the consulate’s byzantine voice-mail merry-go-round. I thought I would have to wait a long time, but I guess they’re not that busy.
It’s unclear to me if I booked it with the right person because none of the choices offered fit what we want to do — so I selected “notary services or other services not listed above.” We’ll find out when we get there I guess.
Funny they don’t spell out things like “renounce” or “relinquish.” I guess they don’t want to publicly admit on the consulate web site that they can do that too.
I’m guessing it will takes months or years to get that precious little piece of paper. In the meantime if my banker asks question I think — based on what Blaze posted above — that we can argue successfully that we are not US persons.
I wonder — since this is my wife doing this, do I get to sit with her and hold her hand? Or do they want to make sure that her evil foreign husband isn’t pressuring her to sell out her true country (what a laugh — I’m going to have to coach her to keep her temper under control if they start asking stupid or provocative questions).
Once we’ve been through the process, I’ll post here how it all went.
@Arrow
download and fill applicable forms, make two copies. One for yourself and one to offer to the consulate to prepare the official copies you will sign on your second appointment if required.
This will save waiting time at the 2nd appt
In Montréal my first meeting with the vice consul took 5 minutes, the actual renountiation less than 15 minutes. The CLN should arrive in 6-12 months. The process involves much waiting, bring a good book.
Clearing the IRS will be the longest part of the process.
Rivka88: I know about the forms, I’ve already got them downloaded and will make duplicate copies.
But this is a notification of an expatriating act — not a renouncement. I’m simply seeking an official recognition (in the form of a CLN) on an expatriating act committed in 1974. I don’t know why it would take a second appointment.
My understanding is they send the CLN to the IRS (among others) at the same time they send it to us. I have no intention of communicating with the IRS in any way, and if the IRS starts sending letters, they’ll be mailed back unopened. I don’t expect that this CLN, if we get it, will take away the risk of crossing the border. But it will stop the bank from doing anything nasty to us — I hope.
@Arrow: I don’t know if you can be with your wife during her appointment. However, be sure to tell her not to take any lipstick. Based on what someone else posted, another woman was required to leave the Consulate (I think in Vancouver) to dispose her lipstick which was in her purse.
I’m not sure what kind of threat lipstick is, but that’s the way of the world now–at least in the US Consulate.
Maybe they think the lipstick is actually a spy gadget. Apparently the following things can be disguised as lipstick: a miniature camera, a pistol (with only 1 bullet), a usb drive, a stun gun, or pepper spray. Govenment workers are a paranoid lot.
@Arrow,
Good Luck. I will anxiously await your post after the appointment as that is also “my” consulate. I agree with you, it should only require one appointment as your wife is reporting her “relinquishment”, done almost 40 years ago.
Are you taking a copy of the oath that she swore in 1974? And of course you will have that great “Statutory Declaration”. Let us hope you never hear from the IRS – perhaps, I am naive, because I know DOS has to notify them when they issue the CLN, but my hope is they will look at the date and decide to ignore any of the “present-day rules”. Let’s hope!
I think that Blaze is probably correct, they won’t let you sit with your wife.
Which other countries protect their consulates like fortresses? I have to admit to, as of yet, never having set foot in a US consulate. Whenever I go to the Italian consulate in an EU country my experience is that, in multiple countries, I can just cruise right in and not have to deal with any security whatsoever. I guess that the difference here of course is that Italy has very (if any anymore really?) enemies…
@Arrow: Notary Services is correct. What you are doing is filling out a form – what they are doing is notarizing it. I guess it makes sense from their point of view but it really confused my wife and me when we made our appointments.
Johnnb: Thanks for that. I suspected as much. Interestingly, one of the documents we will bring with us is a notarized statutory declaration I prepared, covering most of the info that will go on the form, plus a little more. I figure the more paper we can throw at them, the more likely they’ll give us what we want.
I found an interesting Question and Answer on the US Consulate Toronto website that confirms what I’ve always believed, that my husband is not in fact a US citizen. Here’s the Q & A:
Question: I am a dual U.S. and Canadian citizen and I don’t have time to get a U.S. passport. May I enter the U.S. with my travel document showing my Canadian (or other) citizenship?
Answer: No, U.S. law requires U.S. citizens to enter and depart the U.S. documented as U.S. citizens. Improperly documented U.S. citizens may be barred or delayed considerably at a port of entry.
My husband has always only travelled on a Canadian passport with no questioning at the airport. He became a Canadian citizen in 1980.
Tiger: Thanks for the support. I’m taking a copy of the oath she swore — but not the original from her citizenship file. And I will post the details, although it will be second-hand since they won’t let me in the room I’m sure.