Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Claire
I had my appointment at the Toronto US consulate in January. I took a Canada Post Xpresspost envelope that could fit a 8×11 piece of paper, non-folded. My CLN will be mailed from the Toronto US consulate to my house in Ontario. I wrote my address as both the To: and From: on the envelope. I emailed the consulate before my appointment, and that is what they told me to do.
saddened,
Whatever you decide, if you are going to complete your process by certifying on the 8854 that you are compliant with requisite number of tax returns (has nothing to do with FBAR), there is NO extension available for Form 8854.
Thank you so much Calgary411, I appreciate the reply.
@Claire Toronto sent my CLN to me at their expense. Perhaps bring it and you have it in case they ask. But if renouncing, it should be covered by the $450 fee.
@ Claire
The Calgary consulate did not ask for an Xpresspost envelope (regional type) but my husband gave them one anyway and they took it. He probably overdid things a bit but after my bad experience with my I-407 we wanted to make doubly sure he got his CLN. I never did get my I-407 even though I provided a stamped (with US postage) return envelope for the USCIS.
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my question, I think I will go with a prepaid envelope just to be sure.
…or call them or email them to find out, Claire. Did they send instructions for your appointment? Did they ask that you bring a prepaid envelope? Why prepay for an envelope if it is not needed? You’re giving them enough of your hard-earned non-US cash, although it has to be converted to USD. But, as Em says, you may prefer the overkill to be sure. I just don’t want to give the US one more penny of my Canadian-earned savings or investments or vacation travel. Done!
@Claire,
As people have said, it varies depending on the consulate location. Back in September/October, Calgary didn’t mention an envelope. I have to postpone my appointment, and this time the confirmation said to bring:
A self-addressed regional Xpresspost envelope available from any Canada Post outlet. Standard 260 X 159 mm size.
@saddened
My CLN took 11 months from Toronto. I filed my 8854 without having received it. Didn’t seem to cause a problem. That was 2 years ago.
@iamquincy, Thank you very much!
Claire and WhatAmI, It would be great if the consulates / embassies all had the same standards of procedure for expatriations. Perhaps they’re starting to work on that.
In preparation for relinquishing, backdated to 1977, in Vancouver, I sent away for our citizenship files through the Privacy Act (no cost for email delivery) and got them within the promised 30 days. What we received is photocopied or scanned, thus not notarized, and are our only proof of Cdn citizenship other than our cards which were our only given documentation in 1977, no papers. We do have Cdn passports so are obviously Canadians but might we get trouble for our citizenship documentation not being the original files? Have these scanned documents been considered inadequate by Vancouver in other folks’ cases? And yes, the US does now have updated birth certificates which are more secure than before and were easy to get for $67 each with UPS shipping.
This is just a friendly reminder on the language, especially the phrase ‘backdated CLN’. You’re not getting your relinquishment backdated… rather, you’ve ALREADY done the relinquishing deed… you’re just now asking for the formal documentation for something that has already happened in the past. John Richardson, the lawyer who provided our info session in Vancouver this past weekend, made a point of clarifying this phrase.
@Fifi, I did some looking up of definitions of the term. If something is “backdated” it could be form of fraud, and this seems to be the predominant American definition, putting on a document a date earlier than the actual one. But in Britain, backdating just means putting a date on something earlier than the date it was signed, without prejudice to the validity of that date: see http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/backdate
In that sense, this is exactly what happens. If the CLN is signed in 2014 but the effective date of relinquishment is 1960, the CLN is “backdated”. The terminology is precise. Yet the relinquish did take place in 1960. This website has never claimed otherwise. The State Department acknowledges with a backdated CLN that the person has not been a US citizen since the date of relinquishment on the CLN.
I think it could end up a case of carefully thought out semantics. I would guess that people are getting their CLNs with the dates of relinquishment on them, not present dates? A friend is asking an immigration lawyer about this tomorrow. I figure the importance comes regarding tax compliance.
@saddened
I’m in the same situation, no CLN in sight 6 months later.
@iamquincy
Thanks! I was wondering if anyone has done that.
@shunrata, I quess we can just file for June and not worry about it. I don’t know what else to do! It really makes me nervous, I thought I would have received my CLN by now.
@saddened123
My mother renounced in December. I doubt she’ll have her CLN by June, so she’s filing now. With renunciations, I think it’s rare that they are refused in Washington DC. Relinquishments, especially if not based on naturalization in another country, can be refused which makes it harder to decide what to do. I’ve forgotten if you renounced or claimed a past relinquishment.
@WhatAmI, I relinquished, I became a Canadian Citizen 1 month before I relinquished. I hope everything is approved, I think it should be but you never know. I will send everything off for June and hope for the best. Hope your mother gets her CLN soon!
The renunciation data PDF for CLN issuance for Toronto does not seem to have been input for some time .. when is the last known issuance for a CLN from the Toronto consulate – is it for those who renounced in September 2013 that are still waiting or is it for those who renounced in August 2013 or even July 2013 that are still waiting? in other words, where is the current issuance wave at?
TorontoCitizen,
That the renunciation and relinquishment database is not up to date is nobody’s fault but mine. With other things, starting with a hospitalization a year ago, I just let it slide and it is now too big a job to catch up with. The data there, of course, is just what is reported to this site, nothing official as to all CLN’s received by persons who expatriated through any single consulate, so there is no real meaning.
The more up-to-date reports of expatiation experiences at each consulate or embassy as reported here at IBS (from which information was pulled for the database) appears in the Consulate Report Directory listed on the right-hand side of the Isaac Brock home page. Here is the post where a link to the actual Consulate Report Directory resides: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/.
Again, my apologies for falling down on that job of keeping the Relinquishment and Renunciation database up to date.
Q: I realize that the protections provided for Canadian citizens in Flaherty’s IGA are limited. The way it seems to be framed, if my citizenship comes through tomorrow it won’t protect me from past “delinquencies” as defined by the IRS. I plan to renounce and then file for 5 years. I am a year into my application process for Canadian citizenship. Is there any reason to wait for it to come through, or do I act now?
@Wren
I’m not an expert on this, but it seems that applying for Canadian citizenship could be in itself construed as an act of relinquishment, i.e. you could apply for relinquishment of US citizenship as of the day you applied for Canadian citizenship. That would leave you stateless for the time being, but you wouldn’t have the toxic “US person” status anymore.
@Calgary, my accountant is filing for an extension to October 15 via form 4868 and has said that she can hold off on filing 8854 too. We’re having to delay filing because of delayed brokerage statements which might not be ready till well into April or even May! It was a managed portfolio of stocks which exasperatingly were automatically churned so there are numerous sales and gains which will all need to be listed on my 1040. I don’t want to risk making any mistakes!
Re (@notamused): “I’m not an expert on this, but it seems that applying for Canadian citizenship could be in itself construed as an act of relinquishment…”
I’ve gone back over the wording of that bit several times and I’m still not entirely sure about it:
Section 349 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1481):
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality:
(1) Obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years.”
“Obtaining naturalization” is the really discouraging bit, since I haven’t really obtained anything; I have only applied. “Upon his own application” seems to be referring to intent – that it was a willful act on the part of the person seeking citizenship. I can see how it can be read in more than one way, though.
But, hey, legalese is *not* my strong point.
Of course like many people I have read with great interest @petros’ excellent blog post, Relinquish don’t renounce, if you can – as well as the other posts and materials he links to. Since in his written statement for the consulate he indicates his intent to relinquish by both his application and taking the pledge, I was left wondering if he would have been successful if it were only based on the application. There were a few comments on that post that dashed my faint hope in that regard. Here’s are a couple:
“…if the reason you are become a Canadian citizen is to relinquish US citizenship, then you will be able to claim that your becoming a Canadian citizen (when finalized) for relinquishment of US citizenship.” (@calgary411)
“The embassy I am dealing with has written that I must do both (1) (apply for foreign citizenship, which I’ve done) AND (2) take an oath (which cannot be done until I’m a citizen and therefore released; so that’s impossible.) ” @nail-spittin’ mad
So, yeah, not too promising. I am badly in need of a loophole here. Unfortunately working for a municipality doesn’t count either. 😛