Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Thank you to everyone for participating on this site. I’ve been busy collecting information to try and decide how to proceed.
My Canadian parents swore me in as a Canadian Citizen when I was a child in 1971 (I was born in the US and only lived there for a few months as a baby). I think that the current law may have been PUBLIC LAW 414-JUNE 27, 1952. I think this law says that if my Canadian parents swore me in as a Canadian citizen that I would no longer be a US Citizen. Does anyone else read it this way?
Mykitty, it’s possible that you were no longer a U.S. person since the U.S. did not allow dual until 1986 and so you probably lost your U.S. citizenship at that time. Now whether the U.S. is re claiming people who lost their citizenship decades ago is the question.
@Mykitty,
You said your “Canadian parents”. If your father was Canadian, then you have been a Canadian since birth. Even then, since 2009 you are a Canadian since birth anyway. For the purposes of claiming you relinquished your US citizenship in 1971, neither of these facts matter at all or help you in any way, but it will be helpful if you are forced to renounce (you have an easier time not being a “covered expat”.
I’m curious as to why your parents naturalized you if you were already a Canadian born abroad?
You need to hear from @Benedict Arnold Be Me. His mother naturalized him as a child, but even though the law at the time said that (probably) relinquished US citizenship, the DoS in Washington DC seems to ignore the law at the time and (mostly) just applies today’s rules (you can no longer relinquish US citizenship for a child). They refused his naturalization as a minor as a relinquishing act.
Thank you AtticusinCanada and WhatAmI. I think I must have needed Canadian citizenship papers for a Canadian passport when I was 9 years old – and that was why my father swore me in as a Canadian citizen.
I worked for the Canadian federal government in the late 1980’s – and I signed an oath of allegiance. I’m trying to get a copy of that from the National Archives. I don’t know how long it will take to arrive in the mail and I’m a big worry wart. I’m thinking that if it doesn’t arrive by the end of January, that I should probably just renounce my citizenship and pay the big bucks to have my taxes done.
When you book your appointment with the Toronto US Embassy, do you have to be specific and tell them that you want to relinquish vs renounce? Just wondering if I should/could book an appointment for February and decide what to do closer to the date?
@Mykitty,
So far, Toronto’s booking procedure has been to book on line and there’s no space on the form to tell them what it’s for. You go to the American Citizen Services page on their website, and book an appointment for “Notarial and Other Services.”
Some consulates, however, have you book expatriations by e-mail and they send you instructions by return e-mail. So far, Toronto has not done this – you just book and show up. But if you want be certain of this, in case they’ve changed their procedure, probably a good idea to e-mail Toronto ACS at Torontopassport@state.gov
No harm at all in booking an appointment if you think you might decide to put it off, as you can cancel it online using the same booking system.
February booking isn’t available yet. They usually have the booking calendar available for the current month and the following month, so February won’t probably be open for booking until January 2nd, but you might want to check before then.
@Mykitty,
Your government employment is your ticket out of US citizenship.
@WhatAmI,
I just need to prove that I did work for the government and that I did sign the oath. Hopefully the National Archives has a copy of my employee file. I’ve faxed off my request – and now I just have to wait (which I’m not very good at). It’s only been a week since I’ve learned that I need to have a CLN in order to prove I’m not a US person.
@pacifica777
Thank you for the information about the embassy. I feel like I have so little control over anything to do with this situation – so to know that I can book the appointment in advance without specifying any details helps.
Mykitty, I don’t know where you are but, please email me as I DO know someone who is good with U.S. taxes now and she is NOT a “fortune” and she knows what she is doing.
atticus in canada at gmail dot com
@ MyKitty I agree with WhatAmI. Your Oath of Allegiance for you’re Gov’t job is you’re ticket out.
Just be patient. To give you a timeframe, on Feb. 19/13 I sent a request for my Oath from 1972 from
Library and Archives Canada and it took 5 weeks to have it in my hands; but they had the wrong address on their first mailing; I waited 2 weeks then I kept e-mailing them just like a dog after a bone. So if they have the correct address it should take less than 5 weeks.
As for proof of you’re Gov’t job; in my case I included my letter of offer for employment, my pension statement and also my 35 years of service recognition certificate,( anything at all as long as it’s proof of employment). If it’s any help you can go on the Sidebar “Consulate report Directory” and go to page 30 for Halifax and you’ll see my Consulate Report.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
@Authentic 1213
How did you contact Library and Archives Canada? Did they respond that they received your request before your received your documents? It feels like my fax went into a black hole. I don’t have any proof of my job – I assume there would be something in my employee file that would prove I had the job? I’m wondering if I could just go to the Library and Archives in Ottawa myself and look at my employee file.
@atticusincanada US dual only since 1986?
What do you mean by this? I have been dual since way before that and my children too, a couple of them born before 1986.
@allou,
The US didn’t officially recognize dual-citizenship even though people did have more than one citizenship. In 1986 they put it into law as existing and being “tolerated”. This was true to the extent that prior to 1986, you would be stripped of your US citizenship if you naturalized to some other country. The Supreme Court decided it was unconstitutional to take away one’s US citizenship (against one’s will) so the laws had to be changed. Some were even changed retroactively, as AtticusInCanada mentioned.
Subject : Update
My status: old relinquisher (pre-1980), Canadian citizen, low bank account, never travel to US, no assets in US, no CLN, obsessive worrier
IBS has helped me keep my sanity over the past year or so, and several of you have helped me understand and have reassured me. I’ve just looked at the website again after 2-3 months during which I tried to think of something else 😉 , and have been doing some catchup reading of the posts.
I had gathered together all my papers to apply for a CLN, and then decided there was no need for me to get involved with the US consular service at the moment.
The only stuff that seems to have changed in the posts are some people’s fears that the FIs will simply ship off to the IRS the info on all accounts with indicia, however small. Checking some recent FI docs (esp Credit Union Central’s timetable), this doesn’y seem too likely.
So I remain with my decision not to budge, but to keep up with IGA news. As long as there is no indication of fishing for the small fry (plankton, someone wrote) or any change in Canada’s collection and enforcement policy vis-à-vis IRS, sitting pat seems OK.
Any feedback or reassurance appreciated.
Incidentally, I have become more sympathetic of those in a worse situation. Those that in good faith have keep their American-only citizenship status are being totally screwed over by their own government.
@Old & Simple,
KalC would be proud!
O&S KalC is proud of you
@KalC
@WhiteKat
Thanks for the feedback, guys. Should I understand that to mean you think I’m acting in a reasonable manner?
@Old & Simple, the beautify of US policy is that it is undefined or conflicting. Nobody knows what to do or what is best. What one is told to do, one is later told not to do, or vice versa. It’s up to each individual to attempt to figure out what might possibly make the most sense for their situation. If they are right or wrong, time will tell.
@Old & Simple,
Yes 🙂
@ MyKitty Re: Oath of Allegiance from Archives
I had spoken to somebody I know at Human Resources and she gave me these numbers:
613-996-5115 or 866-578-7777
fax: 613-992-9350 and atipd@lac-bac.gc.ca
I made my request by fax and like you I was restless. I called one of these numbers and left a message.
They had my e-mail so finally someone sent me a message and gave me a reference number for my request. Then I haunted that poor fellow whose e-mail I had. He said they were very busy. I found out that there is a 30 day pile and a rush pile and I begged him to put mine in the rush one.
I think somebody mentioned a while back on this site about going to Ottawa to see their employee file after making an appointment of course. This way you would not have it lost with the wrong address as that happened to mine.
Hope you get a positive response.
I’ve heard that in certain instances the US issued CLN’s to people who took out citizenship in other countries as a matter of course in the 1970’s even if that person had not requested one. Has anybody heard of this? If so, is there any way to access a list of these CLN’s?
@WhatAmI re dual
well, then I am beginning to wonder if I have unecessarily renounced US if I unknowingly lost it when I received my passport from my EU country of birth? I never naturalised back to my origin nationality, just went to the consulate with proof of birth, parents nationality etc and received my passport. My parents naturalised when I was 10, and I thus also became U S, but never lost my first nationality. Have had 2 passports for decades, now only one since I renounced US earrlier this year. Any clue as to what my situation is, still waiting for CLN. There must be others like me.
@allou,
My best guess is that you had no choice but to renounce your US citizenship. It sounds like you had EU citizenship since birth and never performed any expatriating act against US citizenship. Applying for a passport of your EU nationality doesn’t count. Since you were not born a dual citizen, you’ll have to pass all three conditions on the 8854 form next year in order not to be considered a “covered expat”.
@WhatAmI
Thank you for your input. Yes I had EU citizenship since birth and never renounced it myself. So I did see that I had to officially renounce the US citizenship
gained through my parents naturalisation. No one ever mentioned I could/would loss the US by applying for a passport from my birth country. Incidentally I have heard that an increasing number of homelanders are dusting off family trees to try to gain a non US passport. This is an interesting trend too.
@allou, it won’t do them any good if they stay in the States. You can’t renounce while you live there and where would they go if they moved? Back to the “home land”, which they know absolutely nothing about? Guess they expect to be welcomed with open arms. Gods above and below, they are so naive.