Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Nobledreamer, the case I mentioned back in the 80s was rejected partly because the guy didn’t apply to change the renunciation until 3 years after the event. Evidently back then the limit for trying to reverse it was one year. Don’t know if that is still the case though.
@Nobledreamer…you could get a family member to sponsor you. If you had kids there over 18, sponsoring you as a their parent you’d have first priority for a green card. Since I am married, I’d have a 10 year wait if one of my parents tried to sponsor me for a green card to get back. Not that I am looking back once I get my back dated relinquishment decision from DOS. I hope they approve it soon.
@Nobledreamer, that makes a sort of sense. Unfortunately, I receive most of my dividend income and savings interest during the first four months of the year so could wind up with another significant tax bill for my final year as a U.S. citizen if no standard deduction or personal exemption is allowed for a short year return. I also don’t understand if my income tax brackets will be pro-rated or if I’ll be allowed to use the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. I’d guess than that the bulk of my income will be taxed at 15% with some if it at 25% or even 28%. My foreign tax credits will probably only cover about two thirds of this.
At least next year should hopefully be the final year of pain. But what I still don’t understand is what my accountant will be charging me for all this plus the 8854 and 1040-NR. I’d guess at least double their normal prices which is exasperating but I’d still feel safer having them do it in case I’m audited. But like i say, at least it should all hopefully be over after next year!
This whole thing is indeed a racket. I also don’t see how I can avoid having to file a 1040-NR because I’ll need to keep my U.S. account open so I can deposit what will hopefully be an IRS refund check too. I don’t think I’ll be able to open a local U.S. dollar account without it being a major hassle. I guess I’ll try to keep that account open in the states but with just a tiny amount of cash in it to be able to keep it going. I could then file my subsequent annual 1040-NRs, myself, because I’d only be looking at a few dollars’ interest each year!
@Noble, though my Father is sympathetic (though still doesn’t understand all the details), he has pointed out to me quite reasonably that wouldn’t I regret renouncing if something ever happened to my older husband? After all, he is over fourteen years older and not in perfect health so I will probably be widowed realistically at still a relatively young age (perhaps 60s).
Because I don’t have any children and especially if my parents were still alive, wouldn’t I regret it if I couldn’t move back to the States because obviously my closest ties would once again be in America? I have to agree that he has a point. I may live to regret my decision, especially when I’m old an frail without any family around me to help take care of me….plus I will feel guilty if I can’t be there for my parents when they’re elderly.
So of course, there are no easy answers here! Life involves difficult choices. My family are scattered everywhere though so we’re probably still closer to our friends in our day-to-day lives than our relatives; we’re fairly independent. Might have been different had we been deeply rooted in one locale.
Obviously, with the expectation of a high volume, the Swedish embassy has streamlined its renunciation procedure this week—Likely in preparation for the tax seminar next month.
Last week I inquired under a pseudonym, and this week I inquired under my name. The 2nd inquiry took a long time, likely because they were improving the procedure.
(removed the double consultation, added info)
RECEIVED TODAY
Dear Sir/Madam:
We want to emphasize that renunciation of U.S. citizenship is a very serious and irrevocable exercise and should therefore only be undertaken after serious consideration of its consequences. Please read more about the procedure and consequences on
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html .
Please also read the Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramification of Renunciation or Relinquishment of U.S. Citizenship,
and the following brochures available on the Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs Website
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_782.html
(1) Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship;
(2) Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship by Person Claiming a Right of Residence in the United States;
(3) Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship and Dual Nationality.
If you are still interested in renouncing your U.S. citizenship after reading this information, you must set up an appointment to come to the embassy for the official renunciation. Please reply to this email and we will set up an appointment for you. The fee to renounce U.S. Citizenship is $450/ SEK 3150.
Sincerely,
American Citizen Services
Embassy of the United States of America
RECEIVED LAST WEEK
Dear Sir/Madam:
We want to emphasize that renunciation of U.S. citizenship is a very serious and irrevocable exercise and should therefore only be undertaken after serious consideration of its consequences. Please read more about the procedure and consequences on http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html.
If you are still interested in renouncing your U.S. citizenship after reading this information, you must first visit the embassy for a consultation. Thereafter, if you remain interested, you will be scheduled for an appointment where you formally renounce your U.S. citizenship.
If you want to proceed, please reply to this email and we will set up an appointment for your initial consultation.
Sincerely,
American Citizen Services
Embassy of the United States of America
@monalisa
I am following your deliberations with interest. Family connections can make an otherwise simple decision very complicated.
I am married to a dual UK/Canadian husband who is 8 yrs older than me. My triple national (US/Canada/UK) children are scattered around the world (but so far not in the US), and expect to stay that way. I have a widowed 82 yr old mother living in the US and I am the only responsible child. We come from a long lived family. Her mother lived into her mid nineties, and lived alone, with a daughter in law looking out for her. My mother is starting to have memory problems, and I am going to visit her next week to sort out power of attorney issues.
If it weren’t for my mother, renouncing would be a no-brainer. Trying to live in Canada under IRS tax rules is crazy. I would not be a covered expatriate now, because I am a dual from birth, but those rules can change.
There are so many questions. Would I move to the US to look after my mother if she needed it? Probably not while my husband is alive, but what if my husband was no longer around. I can’t imagine wanting to live there, but choosing to not care for my mother is also not a choice I want to make. How much could I do as non dual, Canadian only? Will the renouncing and/or tax rules change for the better, or for worse.
When i visit my mother I am going to talk to her lawyer and her accountant, and maybe even an immigration lawyer to see what other options I might have. I’m not even starting to think about who will look after me! It truly feels like I am stuck.
Regarding parents in the US: My mother successfully immigrated to Canada at the age of 92, with help from her children, of course. So it is possible to consider bringing an aging parent or two out, rather than going back to look after them.
@ CanuckDoc
When my parents entered their “dwindles” we moved from the USA to Canada to help. That left my husband’s mother in the USA but thankfully for many years she managed fairly well on her own. (My husband’s father passed away before we moved). When my husband’s mother entered her “dwindles” we knew we could not move to the USA and live without health coverage as we had before. We looked into moving her to Canada but unfortunately we did not have enough income to sponsor her plus she had some health conditions which would likely have disqualified her. My husband did the best he could by making regular trips down to the USA and eventually got her into a wonderful assisted living arrangement which worked very well, right up until her death last year. Here’s a link that might help you investigate the possibility of bringing your mother to Canada.
http://www.comfortlife.ca/retirement-community-resources/lets-bring-mom-to-canada
MonaLisa, my mother asked me the same thing. Would I stay if something happened to my husband? Wouldn’t I be better off moving “home”?
I have been widowed before so it’s not as though I am naive about this as a possibility. But my husband is the only father my daughter has known, his daughters are her sisters and she only remembers here as opposed to the US. I left my hometown at 18 and never moved back – even after my first husband died and it was just my daughter and I and it might have been easier to be closer to family.
Home is a grey area when you are a transplant from another country. It’s about more than just the ground under your feet or the country that lays legal claim to you. Very hard for those who haven’t lived to understand.
I would not move back. The US is not somewhere you can live without a job with health insurance for starters and jobs are not likely to become easier to find – especially ones with benefits – and they have a long way to go before they straighten out their health care access. And it’s a foreign country now to my daughter, and moving back would mean leaving my older daughters behind.
I like my neighbors. I like my town. I know people. They know me. It’s far away from family but I have always lived far away from them. It’s better that way.
You can’t know the future. You can guess and plan as best accordingly but you have to live right now.
@AnonAnon and Em
Thanks for the advice. I had assumed it would be impossible to bring her here, but i was hoping someone would tell me otherwise. I don’t think she wants to move now, but it is interesting to see it is a common enough problem that there is even a webpost on it! It is yet another option, and it makes me hopeful I will be able to work something out.
Does anyone know what happened to the excellent renunciation guide that appeared on our site?
It says ‘”Domain name expired Feb 15 2013″. Has it reopened under another name?
@Heidi, I asked this a few posts back when I found it had disappeared. No response yet though. Real shame if it’s gone completely. Some of the info was a bit dated, but in general it was a very good resource.
@Heidi and Medea
I hope the IRS didn’t shut them down!
@Uncle tell, I too wonder if they were quietly told to shut down perhaps even by the Department of Home Security. It’s good that Brock is based on a Canadian site now but I still worry that some of us, including myself, have been dangerously too open, especially when discussing their renunciations.
I still haven’t decided what I’m going to do but instinctively feel that it would put me in less danger not to actually mention on here what I actually decided to do because I could easily be traced, especially if I discussed the location and date if I choose that route. Perhaps this is selfish of me but I have been so ridiculously open on here and am fearful that if the climate turns even nastier that there could be a witch hunt against renunciunits. Obviously. I have blatantly been discussing all the tax implications so they could try to trace people on here who have renounced to avoid the IRS.
OTOH…
Here’s an article that describes the way I have to deal with this whole US absurdity (by extending its contents to a country, the US). I refuse to be silenced into submission by the country where I was accidentally born. Speaking up for myself and others who don’t have a voice is important for my own sanity.
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Katzman1.html
Renunciation Guide – It looks like the owners have chosen to allow the domain subscription to lapse. The link at USxCanada has been altered to provide access to the last copy made at Internet Archive. The resource says anyone is free to do whatever they want to with the material. Perhaps some obsessive Brockers could take time out from their exclusionary monitoring (anybody else have gradeschool memories of kids being appointed by teach to be the “monitor”?) to grab a copy of the website and incorporate it into Brock? Suggestion: abandon that godawful white type on black background.
@USX That’s a good idea. I wonder if anyone would volunteer the time to do some of the grunt work?
A question for those who’ve already been through the process, particularly here in Switzerland. How do you go about filling in the Oath and Statement of Understanding forms so you have copies with you when you go to the Embassy? I’d like to have them ready to go in hopes it might speed up any waiting time. I can obviously fill in all my info, but what about the Typed Name of Officer on the Oath and the (Vice) consul bit on the Statement? Did you leave them blank or what? I do the deed on Monday so am aiming to fill in the forms over the weekend.
They gave me photocopies after we all signed them. 🙂
@medea
PS. Have a nice day! 🙂
Thanks Heidi, but I’m talking of having them ready before the ceremony. I know a lot of Canadians have filled in the forms and when told it’ll be a while to wait because the paperwork is yet to be prepared they have their copies already filled in ready for use by the embassy staff. Tends to take them by surprise, but it has seemed to help with the waiting time between getting the paperwork done and getting to the actual renunciation bit. Were they quick in getting the paperwork ready for you?
Yes, very quick, but check the documents carefully as they had our names spelled incorrectly and you wouldn’t want the whole thing to be null and void!
Ha, I certainly don’t Heidi! I tend to check on that sort of thing a lot over here anyway because the Swiss just can’t get their heads around my married surname. They always think it’s my first name rather than the family name. It really annoys me when I fill in forms because you would think they’d know that I know what my name is! Yet the number of times I’ve completed forms and had stuff sent back with the names on the correspondence/addresses the wrong way around is amazing.
We had a brief statement printed out as to the reasons we were renouncing. They didn’t ask us for a reason but we gave it to them anyway…impossible to live in a country without a bank account, Americans are now classified as a toxic liability by all financial institutions etc…etc. They were all extremely pleasant and it was painless, It’s the 8854 that is the nasty piece of stuff.
RENUNCIATION GUIDE
This comprehensive and useful guide is still available See usxcanada ,this thread, feb 27 1:14 PM
I have copied it into a Microsoft word file and done some basic editing. Unfortunately it is 66 pages. The most valuable stuff tends to be overwhelmed by side issues such as history. For many of us it is the very best summary out there. Any ideas as to what you would like me to do with this word doc.?