Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Medea
I hope I am still around to witness it!
“California Bar Recommends Legislative Changes to Improve Enforcement”
Surely this refers to the article by the two naïve and undereducated law students? The one that was thoroughly debunked on this blog back when it was published?
The US can’t make the right to renounce conditional. People living outside the US can’t be forced to sign away their worldwide assets.
American lawyers sometimes seem to think that all they have to do is make an American law – problem solved.
Doesn’t work.
I know none of the details but an employer told that his US business partner was extradited to the US from Japan for US tax matters. I was told of this over ten years ago and have no idea how long then he was extradited. Japanese police picked him.
@Plaxy
I did wonder what the hell the California bar assocaition had to do with the renenciation process.
Why do you say they they are law students?
https://www.withersworldwide.com/en-gb/helen-s-cheng
The US can do whatever it pleases, they don’t care what the rest of the world thinks.
Heidi – misremembered – they didn’t seem to have a grasp of international law! 😉
I firmly believe that the USA is a dying empire (I’ve been saying this for the past few years), and dying empires thrash around and hurt others in the desperate attempt to survive just a bit longer.
I predict China will be the next global power.
Not saying that’s a good thing, mind you!
“The US can do whatever it pleases, they don’t care what the rest of the world thinks.”
The US has a lot of power but is not very skilful at using it. Bombing renunciants not being all that practical as a means of enforcing exit tax legislation; even tariffs might not work.
@Plaxy
“The US can do whatever it pleases, they don’t care what the rest of the world thinks.”
I meant that they don’t care two hoots about any human rights law to freely renounce one’s citizenship. They can and might base it on proof of tax compliance and payment.
Heidi – I don’t think so. They can refuse to document loss of citizenship, but they can’t force citizenship on those who have relinquished it.
@Plaxy
If you haven’t commited a relinquishing act, they could refuse to take your renunciation at an Embassy as per their rules unless you have submitted and paid their tax forms. Nothing would surprise me.
They force citizenship on accidentals who don’t want it and have had absolutely nothing to do with the USA.
Heidi – I don’t see it that way. Let’s agree to disagree.
@plaxy
We usually do 🙂
Heidi –
I agree 😉
“Heidi – I don’t think so. They can refuse to document loss of citizenship, but they can’t force citizenship on those who have relinquished it.”
There are many reports of those who relinquished but did not receive a CLN having to renounce to get the CLN. As I recall, a Supreme Court case invalidated many reliquishments and imposed USCship upon many who had reliiquished.
“ They can refuse to document loss of citizenship, but they can’t force citizenship on those who have relinquished it.”
Not only will my banks not accept that I am no longer a USC with documentation from the US, Japan requires naturalized citizens to relinquish their former citizenship/s within two years of naturalizing and requires proof of relinquishment.
There is a recent reported case of a USC who naturalized as a Japanese citizen losing his his Japanese citizenship for failing to relinquish his USCship. In his case, he didn’t want to pay the departure tax and choose not to relinquish USCship. However, whether by the now Japanese citizen’s choice or not, if not free from the US on US terms with in two years of naturalizing as Japanese, the new Japanese citizen loses their Japanese Citizenship.
So, yes, the US can impose citizenship on those wishing to leave it just by not documenting it.
No documentation = no proof = “It didn’t happen”.
“ Japan requires naturalized citizens to relinquish their former citizenship/s within two years of naturalizing and requires proof of relinquishment.”
That’s a Japanese law about Japanese citizenship.
Your banks treat you as a US citizen because you have a US birthplace. And if I understand correctly, you are a US citizen. Correct?
It’s outrageous that US tax law treats US citizens as forever tax-resident in the US, and it’s outrageous that the rest of the world goes along with the pretence. Unfortunately, there’s not much US citizens can do about it.
Birthplace discrimination is a third outrage. That’s a civil rights issue, so I’m optimistic that courts in some jurisdictions may eventually rule against national governments, and put the burden of proof back where it belongs.
As long as an individual born in the US believe inside his/her own head that it’s impossible to abjure US citizenship without a certificate from the US, it will be true, for that individual.
(I use the word “abjure” instead of “renounce” because the US, in its usual Malice-in-Wonderland fashion, has corrupted the meaning of the word “renounce.”)
“As long as an individual born in the US believe inside his/her own head that it’s impossible to abjure US citizenship without a certificate from the US, it will be true, for that individual.”
Losing a naturalized citizenship is nit in ones head.
“Losing a naturalized citizenship is nit in ones head.”
Losing any citizenship is not in one’s head. A naturalized US citizen, just like a US-born US citizen, would need to perform an act of relinquishment (be it renouncing or one of the other acts), and notify the US DoS.
Nowadays, tweeting a self-renunciation video to the real Donald Trump, Barack Obama, one’s tax agency and one’s bank(s) might be an appropriate way to document one’s loss of US citizenship.
I think you miss my point.
Renouncing USCship is only one side of the coin. Leaving aside Statelessness, before renouncing USCship we must obtain another citizenship. To gain another citizenship, we must meet that countries naturalization law obligations. We can not discount this side of the coin. If the country you live in requires documentation to prove you have relinquished USCship, then documentation is needed. Period.
“If the country you live in requires documentation to prove you have relinquished USCship, then documentation is needed”
Indeed. Self-documenting one’s loss of US citizenship would not help a US citizen who needs a CLN in order to comply with local law.
@John Certainly the declaration of Retention should be considered as an oath. If your brother foesn’t Have a copy of it he can request his immigration file from IRCC which should include it along with the application for registration etc.
Everyone saw this, right?
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2018/08/26/business-is-going-great-my-customers-are-good-as-dead-says-black-marketeer-2/
As I understand it, after renouncing you are supposed to file an 8854 with the IRS.
– Anyone have experience with renouncing by someone who is not earning an income and therefore has never filed taxes? Do you still have to do a 8854 since you aren’t yet in their system? If so, what if you don’t have a SSN? Do you have to get one just to file a 8854 to say you have nothing to declare? Do you have to have your LON to file the 8854?
– Also, how long is taking folks in BC to get their LON these days?
– Finally, I think it is the case that someone who has renounced could later go through the process for a working visa (as any other non-citizen would). Does anyone have first-hand experience on whether that is true?
Thanks!