Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
In AU, we pay for address-forwarding.
Imagine what might happen if you leave it up to the US gov’t to forward/PAY YOU?
Right.
“I moved (within country) after renouncing. I called the IRS first thing in the morning US time to clear up a problem and gave them my new address.”
I moved after renouncing and didn’t.
@Plaxy
Ah, I wouldn’t have but, I needed to, they were demanding tax from me that I had already paid. I had to sort it out and did.
Yes, sometimes it can be necessary.
Nice to know they don’t know where I live, though.
@Plaxy
I wish, but I paid 30yrs into Social Security and I didn’t want to let that go. The SS administration are withholding agents for the IRS, so I had no choice to let them know.
I dread a 30% withhold on my TIA university pension if TBT materializes in that way, I don’t relish a fight with my resident country to give me a tax credit if the treaty is nullified. I thought retirement would be non stressful!
I’ve kept the SSA informed. I wasn’t sure if the updates might get shared with the IRS, but from what Jane has said, that doesn’t happen.
I don’t think you need to worry about your SS pension. I think they’ll still be promising tax reform this time next year.
I guess my main gripe is that even as a relinquished citizen, I am able to claim what I have paid in to SS, yet I cannot access my record online– which is their ONLY means of access.
Thus, those who relinquish or renounce are treated extremely unfairly by being denied the access to our own, in-force, records.
I don’t feel unfairly treated by the SSA. Allowing online access from abroad would increase the security risks, and the risk of identity theft.
US Social Security is very good value for money. I’m just glad it’s not administered by the evil devils in the IRS.
Online isn’t the only way.
Download form SSA-7004 from https://www.ssa.gov/hlp/global/hlp-statement-7004-revi.htm
Complete and mail as instructed, and within four to six weeks after you return the form, you should get
a record of your earnings history, an estimate of how much you have paid in Social Security taxes; etc, etc
@plaxy
I think that what stops online access to a Social Security record is the lack of a US mailing address, not because access from abroad is prevented.
There is no basis to believe that access from abroad would have to increase security risks or identity theft risks. Preventing access based on where a person’s IP address is located would not work because so many VPN providers can give you an IP address for a gateway in whatever country you chose. Security risks and identity theft risks are managed by making sure that the identity of the person seeking access to the server is thoroughly verified, regardless of where the person is on the worldwide internet.
The SSA could allow online access to all with Social Security records if they wanted, but would likely have to make changes to their system to set it up for people without US mailing addresses. These changes would undoubtedly need money the SSA is not ready to spend to help a minority of clients. Years ago, before online access had been thought of, there were problems in exchanging foreign address data between the IRS and SSA with the result that foreign addresses on annual statements of SSA earnings were incomplete, and statements often did not reach the intended recipients. This took years to fix. Maybe someday online access for clients with foreign addresses will also be fixed.
@fn0
I received my last, paper statement in 2011. I’ve moved house three times since (renting, & owners selling us out). I thought I wasn’t getting it any more because of that– but it turns out they stopped paper statements & switched to online access. That’s when I found I also couldn’t access SS online! I contacted SS many times & went back & forth over the course of months trying to update my address– only to FINALLY be told, just recently, to contact the IRS! I have no idea why they couldn’t have said that before.
I’ve been in AU since 2007, so my statement won’t have changed– as no further has been paid into SS since I left. It was more a rant over how frustrating ANYTHING is when dealing with IRS/SS/US gov’t., from overseas.
Jane, “I It was more a rant over how frustrating ANYTHING is when dealing with IRS/SS/US gov’t., from overseas.”
Jane, I would extend this further to say that dealing with the government internally or externally is incredibly frustrating no matter the circumstances. 🙂
Cheers,
krackerjack121
I recognize the frustration as I had a similar experience when for years most of my annual statements were never delivered because the IRS and SSA could not get their act together regarding my address. But as far as I can tell from the current SSA website, you can still order a statement by mail by sending in a SSA-7004 form.
On a related topic, it’s good to see it confirmed on the SSA website that WEP does not apply in certain circumstances. This was not always understood by SSA staff and WEP was sometimes applied wrongly to reduce the Social Security pension benefit. Specifically if you have less than 40 quarters of US contributions but qualify because you have worked in countries with totalization agreements (Australia, Austria, Japan, Belgium, Luxembourg, Canada, The Netherlands, Chile, Norway, Denmark, Portugal, Finland, Slovak Republic, Germany, Spain, Greece, Hungary, Ireland) then you don’t lose through WEP. With 40 or more US quarters you lose, as you qualify based on US records alone. With more years of US work WEP reduces and no longer applies with 30 years or work in the US. The WEP tool is at https://www.ssa.gov/international/wep_intro.html
I wouldn’t BE upset had I not contacted previously to be told, “no worries” (AU saying). Then, it occurs, & “I better update”, & get hit with another stupid US WALL! Good grief- I’m relinquished & these f*ckheads are STILL like a spur in your shoe!
A close friend renounced in Feb and made the honour roll (or name and shame list if you prefer) in August.
Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to say that for me at least, the journey that started so many months ago is finally over; I have my CLN in-hand – the one I applied for nearly half a year ago. I picked it up at the post, walked to a local coffee shop and sat for a moment, before opening it. I thought I’d feel glee, but I didn’t. I thought I’d want champagne, but I didn’t (got some Spanish red instead, it wasn’t like a “yippee” moment). It felt more like walking out of a movie or closing a book where you feel, for some time after, as if it took a chunk out of your soul for awhile – oddly empty, quiet, as the unsettled mess that occupied my mind all these months FINALLY dissipated. But whatever. For me, my American story is over on paper now, as it had been in reality when I left many years ago. I don’t even know what emotion this is; this event mixed so many personal issues with impersonal ones, that the result was more….relief than anything, a huge weight that…well, I wish could be lifted off everyone who finds their way to these pages, and – upon reading them thoroughly – realises that the only answer sometimes is the one you come up with for your own situation; that the advice, by necessity, will always conflict somewhat, that the choices and experiences – inevitably – will be unique to each of us. That fee didn’t come easy for us, as I’m sure it doesn’t for many – and when I think about those who can’t do it, those with more entanglements, children, expenses, what have you….it goes against everything I grew up thinking America represented. In the end – and this is what I told them – I found my American dream in Europe. I belong here – something that has only become significantly more obvious as time passed. Anyway – I wanted to thank Pacifica 1000X times over for the succinct and helpful advice re: reaching out to the State Dept. – after being ignored again (predictably, at this point) by the embassy, they responded so quickly, and the person with whom I corresponded over email was polite – actually they were kind about it all. Apologetic and compassionate about how the long wait and lack of Embassy response had taken a toll on us. While she indicated something had happened, she never said what – she confirmed only that it was approved, that I needn’t provide anything else and that she’d ensure it was sent out promptly. Indeed, it was, and I got it a few days later. Whatever’s going on in the SD over in the US right now – there’s at least one person there who was respectful, considerate, and genuinely put me at ease. I’m so deeply thankful to her, that random American woman who made inhuman things feel a bit more human for awhile. When the dust has settled a bit I’ll reach back out as I’d be happy to include my info and experiences in the Consulate Report Directory, in the chance it may aid someone else. Again, thanks all.
@Merrick
With Thanksgiving day approaching here in Canada, you reminded me of the relief that comes with renouncing, receiving that CLN and saying goodbye to the US extraterritorial attempt at taxation. We can be thankful for this and have empathy for those still stuck in the web of US aggressive tax policies.
Last week my alien spouse’s tax transcript for renunciation year 2016 arrived from the IRS as requested. Mine had come earlier. Years ago we had opted to treat my NRA spouse as a US person for taxes to get the higher Married Filing Jointly exemptions and limits e.g. no 8938 forms. It was somewhat weird that the income reported on the joint filing was recorded only on her transcript and nothing on mine. But I really don’t care as both transcripts showed zero taxes bottom line. With these in hand, I can finally close the book on the USA with no worries. I might buy a lottery ticket just because if we were to win $5 million tomorrow, none of it would be wanted by the IRS.
@Merrick, Congratulations, commiserations, sympathies, whatever fits what you’re feeling right now. It hits us all differently so don’t feel bad that you’re not necesssarily jumping for joy. I was a little bit shaky when I came out of the embassy after renouncing, but can’t say I felt anything in particular when the CLN arrived apart from relief that I could send it to my bank before I went on holiday.
@fn0, the IRS may want it – but now they can’t get it.
@Merrick
I myself knew that I was very stressed about it all, but I had no real idea of just how much until it was behind me. Breaking free took a real toll on my finances and state of mind, but it was such sweet relief to unload the heavy burden.
Welcome to the other side!
@Merrick,
I’m happy to hear that your CLN has arrived! Thank you for your kind words – I’m glad I was able to make a helpful suggestion.
@Pacifica777 – You’re so welcome. I had woken up in some stew of anger and depression for so many weeks waiting and being ignored, and this advice brought that to a grinding halt. The state department took 24 hours to do what I’d been waiting on for 6 months, AND apologised for the wait, in the nicest way possible. I could not have asked for more.
Does anyone know the exact procedure from which the quarterly expatriation lists are compiled?
Do 8854’s pile up on an IRS administrator’s desk or is it done from electronic reports from consulates or otherwise?
I have a personal reason for asking. THANKS All.
It’s based on CLNs, or should be. The piling-up-on-desk approach seems likely.
OK, desk pile up was my guess. I have a little more info here.
http://www.renouncecitizenship.ca/resources-and-data/data-on-renunciations/
I appeared twice, 5 years apart, and wondered if there was any rhyme or reason, eg. pulling my file again?