Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. @WhatAmI, did she say that she signed such a paper or that you did? If you don’t remember doing it, you probably did not do it. This affadavit, was common for a while to establish the intent to remain a US citizen.

  2. @Petros:

    I was quoting her but I chose the wrong HTML codes and the quote highlight didn’t work.

    In addition, she later renewed her US passport. She has since done the Streamlined Procedure. She doesn’t seem to want to renounce at this time.

    I’m the one born in the US to Canadian parents and moved to Canada when I was 12 in 1966 who went to the US consul in Calgary to renounce in the early 1970’s and was told dual-citizenship didnt exist and that I wasn’t an American and shown the door. I plan to argue for a back-dated CLN, but I’m waiting several more months first.

  3. @ WhatAmI

    If you were 12 in 1966…then you were 24 in 1978…therefore you need to look at that reference I gave you…before Oct 10, 1978, US born citizens automatically lost their US citizenship IF they did not take an oath to re-affirm their US citizenship before age 22…and didn’t live in the US after turning 21…I am paraphrasing…
    This clause was repealed on Oct 10, 1978…READ IT CLOSELY…THis is the issue I am arguing and waiting for a resolution to…
    The source is right there in the FAM booklet, but is not offered as one of the OUTS by Consular people as they either don’t know it or won’t provide the info voluntarily..

    Sec. 1482. Repealed. Pub. L. 95-432, Sec. 1, Oct. 10, 1978, 92Stat. 1046.Section, act June 27, 1952, ch. 477, title III, ch. 3, Sec. 350,66 Stat. 269, provided that an individual with dual nationality who voluntarily claims the benefits of the foreign state nationalityloses his United States nationality by having continuous residencein the foreign state for 3 years after having attained 22 years ofage unless prior to the 3 year period he takes an oath ofallegiance to the United States, or his residence in the foreign state was for a reason specified in section 1485(1), (2), (4), (5),(6), (7), or (8) of this title or section 1486(1) or (2) of thistitle.EFFECTIVE DATE OF REPEAL Section 1 of Pub. L. 95-432 provided that repeal of this sectionis effective Oct. 10, 1978.

  5. @WhatAmI

    As I mentioned earlier..I was told by 2 sources in 1979 (Stanford & US Cons, Van.) that I was not a US Citizen and therefore I made life decisions based on this information as a Canadian…The preponderance of evidence I provided should be just cause to support such a case..I await news and will update..I didn’t want to give out any false hopes before verifying…but I believe you should become aware of any information that could support your stance that you were informed (like myself) that US Citizenship was automatically lost…

    Here is the FAM reference …

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/109065.pdf
    See page 8 :
    Expatriating Act
    Seeking and claiming a benefit of a foreign nationality acquired at birth by a person born a citizen of the United States

    Section of Law
    INA 350 (8 U.S.C. 1482)

    Notes
    Repealed prospectively October 10, 1978 Public Law 95-432 See 7 FAM 1200 Appendix D

  7. @Benedict Arnold

    I’ve found the 1978 changes online that you quoted above. I found where the law change is stated as “prospective”, which I take to mean “for the future”, which I take to men “not retroactive”. Have I go that right?

    I also found the FAM (Foreign Affairs Manual) section you refered to:
    7 FAM 1200 APPENDIX C
    TAKING UP RESIDENCE ABROAD: LOSS OF
    NATIONALITY, DUAL NATIONALS AND
    NATURALIZED CITIZENS

    Here is the FAM: http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/

  8. @Benedict Arnold

    Oh, I see you made another post while I was searching. I think I found all the right documents. Note that there is an error where it says to see 7 FAM 1200 Appendix D. It is actually Appendix C:

    1200 APPENDIX C – TAKING UP RESIDENCE ABROAD: LOSS OF NATIONALITY, DUAL NATIONALS, AND NATURALIZED CITIZENS
    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120532.pdf

  9. @WhatAmI

    Thanks…I have bookmarked that also…

    As I said…I did my CLN on April 10th in Calgary…I am awaiting resolution…will update once I see something…

  10. It’s funny. When I was a kid, after we moved to Canada, my mother always said we had dual-citizenship “until we were 21”. Sometimes she may have said 18? It was this uncertainty that provoked me to visit the US conul in the early 70’s. I was somewhere between 18 (1972) and 22 (1976) and I wanted to make sure my US citizenship “ended”. I was surprised when the consul told me dual-citizenship didn’t exist. I think I understand now that what my mother was refering to was not that I had dual-citizenship per se, but that I would lose my US citizenship after age 21 (more or less) if I didn’t do something to retain it.

    Sheesh, you just can’t trust anybody to know everything. I recently paid a US citizenship lawyer $300 for a consultation, asking about my chance for a back-dated CLN based on the fact of my visit to the consul in the 70’s and being told I wasn’t an American. He said it could be a slim chance but worth a try before going the renunciation route. He didn’t say anything about the citizenship law we are quoting here now, which at the moment seems like a slam-dunk for me and (hopefully) Benedict Arnold.

  13. SwissPinoy,

    That’s a great flowchart you built, which will be helpful as a visual for people to comprehend “US citizenship” and therefore better find out and understand what requirements for such are. Thanks for that.

    The question of are you automatically a US citizen from birth if born to US Parent(s) (with the usual time spent in the US requirements) has not been answered definitively. The legal opinion I have conflicts with what has happened three times that we know of at renunciation appointments at US consulates/embassies.

    I am waiting for confirmation from the General Consul at the US Embassy (Department of State) in Ottawa that what has been told to some when they have gone in to register to then be able to renounce or to just renounce US citizenship – that they did not have to renounce (as they were NOT US citizens) if they had not been registered by their parent(s) as a US birth abroad. The specific question is:

    Is a person born abroad to US parents automatically a citizen from the time of birth?
    OR
    Does that person have to a claim to US citizenship if he/she so chooses upon becoming an adult?

    I believe (and I know there are those who disagree with me) that needs to be absolutely clear to all of us — “accidental Americans, the children born abroad. A person being told they do not have to renounce as they were never registered may be detrimental to them and bite them in the butt later on as they go along believing what they were told.

    I, for one, want to know that FOR SURE for my son (who is developmentally delayed, who cannot renounce US citizenship himself and for whom I am denied the right to renounce on his behalf, even with a court order per DOS regulation). I, myself, have made the decision that I will NOT register my son as a US citizen so he can then renounce, because he cannot renounce (and we just go around in a circle). If my son was an automatic citizen from birth, he is entrapped into US citizenship — with no way out.

    Your flowchart shows that a “developmentally disadvantaged” person who chooses US citizenship then is a US citizen. If “False” the arrow goes to “Relinquish.” This is not how I understand it. As I understand it, that “developmentally disadvantaged” person is not capable of “choosing” US citizenship (if indeed it is or ever was really a choice) nor is he capable of “relinquishing” the US citizenship that he would have been automatically born with in a country abroad whether registered at birth or not (as my son).

    I will follow up once more to see if there is yet a definitive answer — there was not as of last Friday.

  14. Has anyone obtained, or tried to obtain, a Nexus card *after* renouncing? Seems that *should* be one way to ease border crossings concerns.

    TIA

  15. @calgary411, thanks. The flowchart is being built and is far from being complete. One of my next steps is to detail each topic and I was thinking of beginning with the developmentally disadvantaged, collecting all the facts to also submit an inquiry to the US embassy in Bern if the developmentally disadvantaged can relinquish since they never chose to be a citizen.

  16. So let me get this straight (for my wife’s sake). When my wife goes in to take her “naturalization” as a Canadian citizen, she announces that she is taking Canadian citizenship with the intention of renouncing her American citizenship, then we tell the US consulate that we are relinquishing (by making an appointment with the Calgary consulate) and meeting them at that time (her only). I presume she still has tax and FBAR reporting for the 5 years prior to her relinquishing act, I presume. And she will get her CLN even with a relinquishment rather than an outright renunciation? I just want to get this ALL straight in my head.

  17. Anyways, after 13 years up here in Canada, she says she’s more Canadian than American anyways. She loves Canucks hockey (even more religiously than me), she wants to vote in Canadian elections. She eats poutine; loves the real maple syrup, not the disgusting flavored corn syrup. She’s studying like crazy for her naturalization test and hell…she doesn’t even get the “Where you from?” question like I do. Y’know, the one “Where you come from?”… “uh…Canada?”…”No, I mean WHERE…do you come from…” O…K…

  19. Even though I at the time had to naturalize to become a Canadian citizen, I am so happy that Canadian law changed since then, allowing me status as a Canadian at birth through my mother.

  20. Thank you for your considering making an inquiry to the Bern US Embassy regarding the “developmentally disadvantaged / developmentally delayed / mentally incapacitated person”. The related important question to be confirmed (and I have sent another request for an answer):

    Is a person born abroad to US parents automatically a citizen from the time of birth?
    OR
    Does that person have to a claim to US citizenship if he/she so chooses upon becoming an adult?

    Regarding what I was initially told and confirmed to me by Washington, DC immigration / nationality lawyer, in a recent comment: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/05/09/us-citizens-are-not-reporting-canadian-trusts/comment-page-3/#comment-334275

  21. @Calgary411, you can also make an argument from point “c” regarding taking up his citizenship:

    c. The requisite intent may also be found lacking if there is evidence that due to mental incapacity or impairment the individual does not understand the seriousness of renunciation, including its irrevocable nature and the major consequences that flow from it.

    My version:
    “c1. The requisite intent may also be found lacking if there is evidence that due to mental incapacity or impairment the individual does not understand the seriousness of taking up citizenship, including its irrevocable responsibilities and the major consquences that flow from it.”

    He cannot take up his option of US citizenship as he simply doesn’t understand the concept.

  22. Thanks, Medea.

    All makes sense, but we all (especially “Accidental Americans”) need absolute clarification on if there is an OPTION of US citizenship, to not be blindsided by the US further down the line (worst-case scenario). I have my decision made, but I still want to know:

    Is a person born abroad to US parents automatically a citizen from the time of birth?
    OR
    Does that person have to a claim to US citizenship if he/she so chooses upon becoming an adult?

    I know that many don’t think this necessary, but I’d rather go forward with an absolute answer. I just think a big segment of US Persons Abroad should not have to find work-around’s to live normal lives in other countries. Why don’t we absolutely know?

  23. Yes, Calgary411, there’s waaaay too much confusion around this issue (and due to the lack of clarity available, I’m convinced the US prefers it that way). We need it in writing, to quite literally take to the bank.

  24. @ Calgary411

    Putting one’s “head in the sand days”, with a “don’t ask, don’t tell” stance, is an option that leaves many uncertainties. FATCA, whether repealed or not, has revealed, at the very least, a glimpse of either an imminent risk, or a potential risk that may one day again face the “accidental dual citizen”. Because the Department of State is the US branch of government that has been given the designated responsibility and authority to either confirm or disallow a citizenship claim, I they are the appropriate US government department to address the question of whether a child born abroad to a US citizen is under any “legal obligation” to assert a claim to US citizenship. I think that there may in fact be a “loop-hole” in the US written law code which has left the door open for an “accidental citizen” to make a choice as to whether to assert a claim or not. While all the language on the US consulate websites implies choice with words such as “may have a claim”….not having certainty of legal obligation leaves many in limbo.

    Calgary411…I am doubtful that you are going to be able to receive a definitive response because I think a law loophole may in fact exist because of the separation of power that exists between the Department of State and the tax department. The US tax arm of the government has not been given the authority to confer citizenship….they just enforce the laws for tax collection as it applies to the various categories of US persons as conferred by the DOS. Therefore, if an accidental has not been officially conferred a “US person” status by the Department of State, are they, “in fact” a “US person”?

    I know this all sounds like double talk, but I think we understand each other. While I fear the answer to your posed question to the Ottawa US Consulate, it is a crucial question. A definitive answer can help many “accidental duals” chart their forward path. At the very least, they need to know whether they are under any legal obligation to register a claim. And, if they don’t, what are the LEGAL consequences for not doing so. If in fact, this is a real loophole in US law, then, they at least need to know that as well. Unfortunately, having “loopholes” revealed, can create interest in having the loophole closed.

  25. Thanks for that, therapist604.

    For me, complete awareness about any issue in my life has given me the strength I needed to deal with it and to be able to advocate for others with less voice than I.

    It is impossible for me to bury my head in the sand — doing so would have contributed more to my “insanity” than what I’ve gone through. That people should have to look over their shoulder for the rest of their lives, forever wary, to live as normal human beings is wrong. Don’t talk in riddles to us. Someone in Washington, take the lead. (Mayor Nenshi has in Calgary in this disaster that changes so many lives — no BS from him.) All of our government representatives, wherever, should be effective, strong leaders for their terms — not when elected in a position for the start of campaigning for the next election.

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