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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. @Innocente

    That sounds reasonable. I’m thinking of sending them the spreadsheet as an attachment and adding a separate line item for coins found under the sofa seat cushions. Maybe they’ll see the humour.

  2. @Innocente,

    The used value of my “Household” property, which I used for my 8854, imagining if it sold at a flea market, was much less than its insured replacement value I would get if my house burned down.

  4. Hi Petros. I am back from Montreal visiting my father in a residence. I have to put things in perspectives. I feel so privileged not to have a frontier between us. I am so happy that he cannot appreciate anymore what the US is doing. He would be so upset at what he did in his financial planning to spare his family from future Canadian taxes and paying them in advance…Creating a family holding company, “gel successoral”, etc. nothing geared to a US attack!
    He earned all his assets in Canada, he is dual…born in Montreal
    I am glad that my financial planner just cancelled our appointment today at the last minute.
    I want to prepare with more specific instructions to him.
    I have not set foot in the US in two years and I will likely never go again.
    I never filled US taxes. I don’t have assets in the US. I am dual at birth. Would probably not be able to relinquish because I was ( really!) sucked into getting a US passport…
    I have no intention of ever filling US taxes or FBAR’s
    I could certainly renounce and become a “covered expatriate”, but my dad could not at this stage.
    I could also do like my dad (the only strategy available to him now) and lay-low from the US pour toujours…
    We both don’t own any assets in the states. Both married to Canadian spouses.
    Is there a strategy described anywhere (that I can read) on how to minimize risk on our respective financial portfolios managed by Canadian firms?
    I realize that many mutual funds have content from companies outside of Canada.
    Should I give instructions to my Financial planner to ditch some assets? What is safe from the US IRS grab/”vol en plein jour” here in canada, assuming that the CRA mandate is not expanded to become a IRS agent, ever !!
    Some of my portfolio is also in RRSP .
    Should our house be in the name of my canadian spouse only?
    The following below gets the mind spinning if Canada agrees to FATCA and I have to think about the last Saturday morning session in Toronto. It was really worth the 9 hr. return trip.
    Thanks for that! and for a wonderful group of people.

    http://www.pwc.com/us/en/financial-services/publications/fatca-publications/fatca-internal-controls-certifying-compliance.jhtml

  6. Hi,

    I’m new here and like all of you am looking to renounce, or preferably/actually relinquish my US citizenship.

    I have dual citizenship (swiss and US), only having the US because I was born there but I never lived in the US except for a short period of 6 months when my employer sent me there for an assignment. I also serve in the Swiss army and believe this should be reason enough (according Immigration and Nationalties Act. S. 349(a) act) to relinquish my US nationality.

    Am I right to believe that I can therefore relinquish my US citizenship? And if so, what is the actual procedure (is there a post that mentions the actual step by step procedure for relinquishing – not renouncing – US citizenship). I have declared US taxes since I started working but really don’t want to pay the 450$ unless I have no choice…

    Thanks for the help.

    cdk

  7. @cdk, the Swiss & US have a treaty which allows an duals to serve in either military or both, and thus I doubt that such can be used as a reason to relinquish. You could give it a try and argue your case with the embassy, though. Then, post the response here so that we can share such info with others.

  8. @cdk

    Others know more about relinquishment than me, but the fact that you have been filing US taxes is likely to disqualify you from being able to relinquish since you continued to assert the rights/duties of US citizenship after your expatriating event (leaving aside, for the moment, Swiss Pinoy’s comment about the treaty agreement between Switzerland and the US). A relinquishment would also be difficult if you acquired a US passport and used it to enter and leave the US when you traveled there for your job.

    Being US tax compliant does, if you have 5 years of compliance, make a renunciation more straightforward, albeit at the cost of $450. Also, if you are dual from birth and tax resident in Switzerland, you at least don’t have to worry about the exit tax (although if you are early in your career it would be unlikely to impact anyway).

  9. @cdk, I agree with Edelweiss. The fact that you’ve been filing US returns will likely exclude you from making a relinquishment, and if you are a dual citizen from birth this would also. To be able to relinquish you have to undertake a deliberate act with the intention to lose your US citizenship. Being born dual doesn’t meet this qualification and, as SwissPinoy points out with the agreement between the US and Switzerland, neither will your military service. Here’s a link to show how relinquishment can be done though if you are interested in the process:

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/

    Given that you are already up-to-date with your tax filing (including the FBAR’s I hope), then renouncing should be very straightforward. The embassy in Bern is very on the ball when dealing with renunciations; I did mine in March this year and had the CLN back in about 6 weeks. The embassy webpage on renunciations, together with the e-mail address for the necessary info/documents, is here:

    http://bern.usembassy.gov/service/renunciation5.html

    Let us know how you get on. You can find reports on others’ experiences at various embassies around the world here:

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.06.12.pdf

    Good luck and if you’ve any other questions, you know where to come.

  10. @Edelweiss, a dual from birth and tax resident in Switzerland will still have to meet the tax liability test or the net worth test when not:

    U.S. resident for not more than 10 taxable years during the 15 taxable year period ending with the taxable year during which the expatriation date occurs
    http://www.irs.gov/irb/2009-45_IRB/ar10.html

  11. @Swiss Pinoy

    That’s true. I assumed cdk met that test and didn’t mention it specifically on the basis of cdk’s statement that “I never lived in the US except for a short period of 6 months”.

  15. On another thread I mentioned a worry that IRS might decide to audit 8854 years after renouncing and filing the form–and wondered as to the statute of limitations for 8854.

    I do not know the answer, but Googling turned up the following March 2013 posting which, if correct (note that US tax attorney is providing this information), suggests that IRS “is starting to audit these forms”:

    ‘IRS Auditing Ex-Pats’ Forms 8854
    Posted 03.25.2013
    Taxpayers who expatriate and meet certain criteria must file Form 8854 – Initial and Annual Expatriation Statement. It has come to our attention that the IRS is concerned whether complete and accurate Forms 8854 are being filed. Taxpayers filing Forms 8854 need to be aware that the IRS is starting to audit these forms.”

    From: http://www.lesourd.com/news/

  16. @IRSCompliantForever

    I saw something about that last week and it scared the bejesus out of me. Will try to find what I saw in case there is any updated info from March.

  17. @nobledreamer,

    Thank you for commenting—I thought that I was the only one who worried about this.

    If your 8854 is found to have a problem, then you never crossed over….

  18. Audit, schmaudit. If I have no US interests, audit away. I would not supply further info in my own case…no US income, Canadian income $0, no requirement to file, no US holdings. The IRS just keeps coming up with reasons for me to tell them to kiss my always-was-a-Canadian, no-connection-to-the-US a$$.

    I know this affects others, but I give up. I dare them to try to audit me. This is a game two sides must play, and I’m not playing. Don’t feed the trolls. If I have to place every bit of any asset I have in my husband’s name, so be it.

  19. @The Mom,

    I won’t disagree with you, as your answer is the only honest way to deal with trolls.

  20. I am American born, live in Canada and became a Canadian citizen in 2003. I do not have a CLN. Can I now relinquish or must I go through the renunciation process. Advise would be much appreciated. I am new to this blog.

  21. Marga, did you vote, renew a US passport or travel to the US using a US passport since 2003? If not, then, as I understand it, you might be able to relinquish.

  22. Marga, when you became a Canadian citizen, there was probably a question asking if you intend to keep or renounce your US citizenship. Do you remember anything like that, and how did you answer it?

  23. @swisspinoy and WhatAmi. Thank you both. I have not voted, paid taxes, do not own US property and have not travelled on a US passport. I do not remember being asked if I intended to renounce. I actually assumed I had relinquished because I swore allegiance to the Canadian flag and the Queen which I understood to be an expatriating act. So it sounds like I can relinquish and get a CLN. Thank you for your help.

  24. @Marga, make sure you understand that your becoming a Canadian is a relinquishing act if done with the intention of losing citizenship. That is, you have already relinquished, and your trip to a Consulate is to inform them of your prior act, and that you are no longer a US citizenship since the date you became a citizen of Canada.

  25. I checked with a friend of mine who become a Canadian citizen in 2002/2003. She said:
    I signed a paper saying I did not intend to give up U.S. when I became Canadian.

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