Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@calgary411
Thanks for fixing the typo.
In all fairness, US citizenship never used to be such a burden. The silver lining is that your kids never lived in the States, which means they aren’t eligible to pass US citizenship along to offspring.
@WestCoaster
Thank you for your reply. I’m glad to hear that you’re almost free and clear from the tentacles of the United States. I’m sorry that it’s taken such an outlay of cash, time, and effort on your part to get your feet out the door.
“Sometimes I wish that I could just ignore the whole business, but I just can’t. In terms of my peace of mind, officially applying to renounce was the best thing I could’ve done.”
I think if I went the official route (official for the US), I would end up even more miffed than I am now. Like many ex-pats, even though I had no intention of ever moving back to the US after being gone for so long, I considered the right to walk up to the border and say “Let me in” a pretty basic right since I was born and raised there. Despite all I dislike about the US, and there is much to dislike, ceding my actual right of return was done under duress. Having to spend $2,350 USD plus filing fees, taxes, penalties, and interest (which would be substantial as my medical practice is incorporated here in Canada– the US doesn’t allow this), FBAR fees, loss of financial privacy with the FBARs would just be too over the top for me to consider. Like lots of folks here, I’ve simply walked away from the Plantation and blending in with my fellow Canadians. Maybe this requires telling my banker a White Lie from time to time but I do sleep well at night!
@Calgary I remember registering my kids births at the Montreal consulate back in the 1990s and in 2000 and thinking nothing of it. And even with our fourth child who came along in 2007. My wife and I looked at the kids having US citizenship in addition to their Canadian citizenship as an option that would open up more of the world to each of them when they became adults. In retrospect, what a mistake. But who would have figured? My two eldest know the score though– they plan on simply walking away from their USC and living their adult lives as Canadians. Both of them consider the US a scary, violent, right wing place that they don’t particularly feel comfortable visiting.
Cheers!
BC Doc
@BC_Doc
Thanks for the support. Our situations are substantially different, so it makes sense that we’re choosing different paths. I think it’s wonderful that you’re able to put this issue to one side and just live your life; one thing I’ve learned from all of this is that I need better stress management skills, so that’s something I’m working on.
The good thing is that your kids know the score. They can decide whether to save up to renounce at 18, before they have income and assets that need to be reported on — freedom with next-to-no paperwork, it’s a bargain even if they jack up the application fee. (Yes, I’m being sincere. I agree with you that expatriation should be free, but unfortunately it’s not. I’ve shelled out a small fortune in accounting fees over the years, so I consider the $2350 a mere drop in the bucket. And I don’t even want to put a dollar value on the stress!)
Anyway, like I said to calgary411, back then US citizenship wasn’t a burden so it’s not like you intentionally set out to create problems for your kids. If it’s any consolation, the US would consider them American even if you hadn’t registered them.
It’s a real shame that the US is doing its level best to alienate Americans who choose to live abroad, especially those with actual ties to the country and fond memories of their time there.
@calgary411
Thank you for the kind words, they are much appreciated.
@Westcoaster – “The US is a juggernaut that steamrolls over other countries’ sovereignty without any real resistance.”
The US isn’t playing this game alone. The developed and developing countries are all busily jostling for position and advantage, as ever was. True, America dominates hugely, as the world’s biggest economy, but America needs the other countries too – it doesn’t get everything its own way, especially when it comes to international taxation.
The fact is, a lot of the other countries saw the opportunities in the FATCA legislation (gaining control over banks that collude with tax evaders) and thought “We’ll have some of that!”). As I see it, it doesn’t mean our own countries have thrown us to the wolves, it’s just that when it comes to FATCA and tax treaties and so on, they’re acting on the macrolevel of diplomatic negotiation and national interests rather than the microlevel of individual rights
CBT/FATCA is rotten unfair for us lot, but let’s hope the unfairness is going to be gradually ameliorated and addressed over the next few years, as courageous initiatives like the ADSC lawsuit bring the issues before the courts. And meanwhile, thank goodness, the IRS also doesn’t get everything its own way when it comes to trying to enforce CBT. Within America, they get spoonfed with information about taxpayers’ finances, and they have unbelievable powers to levy extortionate penalties and rewrite tax returns and virtually steal money direct from taxpayers’ accounts – and with all that power, they still can’t manage the system. When it comes to trying to enforce their stupid rules abroad, they have to go cap in hand to the other country’s tax authority to ask for information on a US Person’s income. If they kept asking for information about ordinary, law-abiding citizens, they’d look like idiots. So they’re probably not going to do that. They’re mostly going to accept what we put on the forms, if it makes sense and looks right. That’s what I think.
@ WestCoaster in November 2013 when crossing into amerika I had a long and unpleasant experience with the home land security guy. I was crossing on my Canadian passport like I had done for years with no problem. I was told by this chap that “since my first stop was going to be long beach and that since they had a post office there I should go directly there and get a passport application.”
my wife’s and I’s first stop was the grocery store for a six pack and going to the beach. I had no idea what the homeland security guy was on about but I knew getting an American passport was not a good idea.
when we got home I spoke to my mother about this incident and she then informed me about FATCA and IBS.
I went through the whole range of emotions of grief, looked into the paper work of renouncing, thought about the then $450 fee, talked to my accountant (who is a 25 year personal friend), spoke to a high flying tax (cross border) lawyer and realized the $45,000 ish or so that it was going to take to make me compliant with a foreign gov’t was just plain wrong.
my situation was complicated by the fact that I was signatory on bank accounts for a not for profit society that over the course of the year had upwards of a couple of hundred thousand dollars flow through its books. I have been away from that organization for 4 years now.
I am in the process in 2016 of shutting down another not for profit entity that I am signatory on its account that a one time in the year has over $100,000. in its accounts. these 2 not for profit entities are fully recognized by the CRA but both my accountant and tax lawyer were unclear how the IRS would actually treat them. hence the heafty estimate as they both wanted to make sure I was squeaky clean on the paper work.
I have moved the great majority of my personal banking to a “local client based” credit union and have no problem lying on any form a fiscal institution puts before me asking me my “americaness”. I already have had to do so on 2 forms.
i left America in 1966. the American gov’t has no idea who or where i am and i refuse to play their game by putting a target on my back and identifiying myself to them.
as stated by others here each and every one of our circumstances are unique and each and every one of us has to make a decision that is comfortable to us and us alone.
you chose to go the CLN route and play the game. that was obviously the right one for you and i applaude you for having the werwithal to see it through all the steps to the end.
i believe the CLN is the great wild card in this whole situation that right now it seems to be the kryoptonite that defeats amerika. my worry is what if one day amerika goes “ha ha just kidding” and then they know who and where i am.
in addition for me it was to complicated and expensive to take those steps. will i live each day looking over my shoulder because of this. nope. i have excepted i will never cross the border in americka again and am getting on with my life.
IF perchance a brown envelope shows up in my mail box it will go unopened to the bottom of the bird cage.
@All: In addition to my natural refusnik nature (I came to Canada during the Vietnam era, after all!), I am relying on another factor for protection from the flailing beast to the South. My net worth is such that if the IRS were to somehow track me down and even thought they could confiscate everything they would find the cost to do so would exceed the potential proceeds and would result in a net loss to the US Treasury.
Congress never did a cost/benefit analysis when they passed FATCA but its my understanding that IRS agents must do one before they decide to actively go after an individual. Of course, threatening letters are cheap but they really don’t get the job done when they are sent to someone who knows what a bunch of crap this whole fiasco is. I, too, would let that letter line the bottom of the cage for a while before I returned it to the sender!
The more sticks we can collectively jam into the spokes of the FATCA wheel the sooner it will wind up being yet another dismal government failure. That means not cooperating with the US government, the Canadian government, or our banks. I sleep well at night.
@mettleman
my wife’s and I’s first stop was the grocery store for a six pack and going to the beach.
I hear you. Our birdcages might get quite full who knows and who cares. But as you said, each person has to do what is right for him/herself. My stress level is solely related to the awful stories I read here about the fear people are living under and the ridiculous steps those who wish to be tax complaint must undertake. I actually get a stomach ache anytime I read about it.
@ the Mom
I also don’t recall what my US address was since I came to Canada at age five and my parents are long gone.
@ BC_Doc
This is the first time I have read a full account of your circumstances. I wondered why you were denied relinquishment.
As someone said upthread what’s the US going to do to me? They can’t touch me here. If I were to cross the border again they could deny me entry. Would they lock me up and throw me in jail? It’s always possible I suppose. I don’t worry about it. But I do stress and worry about everyone else trying to live anywhere outside of the most arrogant country in the world who has The Taint.
I need to take a hiatus from this thread before I get an ulcer. I need to keep the focus on our fundraising, so we can restart the litigation because it is the only viable solution I can see.
We were initially up against Harper, now it’s Trudeau version 2.0. Nothing has changed except more Canadian politicians and the new PM lying to us.
@iota
“The US isn’t playing this game alone. The developed and developing countries are all busily jostling for position and advantage, as ever was…it doesn’t mean our own countries have thrown us to the wolves, it’s just that when it comes to FATCA and tax treaties and so on, they’re acting on the macrolevel of diplomatic negotiation and national interests rather than the microlevel of individual rights”
I’m not going to disagree with you. I singled out the US, not only because they’re global top dog, but because the US believes it owns us, lock, stock and barrel, even when we choose to live our lives elsewhere, and successfully forces other countries to ensure compliance.
“CBT/FATCA is rotten unfair for us lot, but let’s hope the unfairness is going to be gradually ameliorated and addressed over the next few years, as courageous initiatives like the ADCS lawsuit bring the issues before the courts.”
I hope so, I really do. However, I personally needed to be proactive because the stress was really taking its toll on me. Not to the point of being suicidal, but it’s had a big impact on my normally sunny personality, making me feel anxious, trapped and desperate.
It’s wonderful that some people are able to live their lives without letting this affect them overly, but I found that I was just not capable of that. I feel much better now that I’ve renounced, despite the cost and the effort it’s taken to get to this point.
@mettleman
“you chose to go the CLN route and play the game. that was obviously the right one for you and i applaude you for having the werwithal to see it through all the steps to the end.”
Thanks, it’s been a hard struggle. I love to travel but haven’t left Canada in the five years since finding out about my filing obligations, since accounting fees aren’t cheap plus of course the $2350 (to put that into perspective, that’s $3400 Canadian — more than I’d get if I sold my car). I am determined to cross all the t’s and dot all the i’s, so I can put all this behind me. I’m not looking forward to forking over more money to my accountant, but at this point I’m only going to have to give him two more cheques — for filing for 2015 this year, and then filing for 2016 plus the 8854 next year — and then I’m done.
Like I said to BC_Doc, everyone’s circumstances are different so I realize what works for me isn’t necessarily going to work for everyone else. It would be far more complicated and costly for you to officially renounce than me, so it makes sense that your approach is different than mine. Plus it sounds like you’ve got good stress management skills, which is something I need to work on.
@Canadian Ginny
“I need to take a hiatus from this thread before I get an ulcer.”
Yes, please look after yourself. Thank you for all you do, it’s much appreciated!
@ westcoaster Plus it sounds like you’ve got good stress management skills, which is something I need to work on.
not so sure about that. 2 summers ago when i was in the midst of trying to figure out what i was going to do i was drinking heavily which did neither my mental nor physical health need. i have cut way back on the beer intake and have thrown myself heavily into powerlifting which at the end of an hour and a half of moving heavy weight 5 days a week it puts life into a much different perspective than the beer did. 🙂
@maz57 i missed that era by a few years but i totally identify with the anit establishment question everything that came out of those years.
@ Canadian Ginny i too feel sorry for the people who are just experiencing their OMG moments and then they arrive at a compliane condor with out doing their homework here and then making an informed decision.
@Westcoaster – “It’s wonderful that some people are able to live their lives without letting this affect them overly, but I found that I was just not capable of that. I feel much better now that I’ve renounced, despite the cost and the effort it’s taken to get to this point.”
Yep, I made the same decision, for very similar reasons, plus that was the way I felt best able to send a message to America: “You think you own me? You don’t.
I don’t think I could ever have got it off my mind and stopped feeling angry and resentful, if I hadn’t renounced. Even so, it seems to be taking me a while to get back to normal life. I guess it will wear off.
@mettleman
“not so sure about that. 2 summers ago when i was in the midst of trying to figure out what i was going to do i was drinking heavily which did neither my mental nor physical health need. i have cut way back on the beer intake and have thrown myself heavily into powerlifting which at the end of an hour and a half of moving heavy weight 5 days a week it puts life into a much different perspective than the beer did.”
Good for you, swapping the beer for weights! I have to admit the many sleepless nights led me to consuming way too much caffeine and sugar. My goal for this year is to lose the weight I gained, and cut back to just one cup of coffee a day.
@iota
“I don’t think I could ever have got it off my mind and stopped feeling angry and resentful, if I hadn’t renounced. Even so, it seems to be taking me a while to get back to normal life. I guess it will wear off.”
I totally relate. It’s been such an emotional roller-coaster ride that it’s going to be an adjustment being on solid ground again. A good adjustment, but nonetheless a big one.
My CLN arrived today!!! So, so happy. And relieved.
Have posted to the consulate report directory, because I found reading other people’s reports super helpful.
Sincere congratulations on receiving your CLN so promptly, WestCoaster. Your happiness and your relief shine through your words in this evening’s comments. Your light at the end of a dark tunnel is getting brighter.
Thanks, calgary411! It’s going to take a while to sink in, but it does feel like a huge burden has been lifted.
@WestCoaster, congratulations! That was a nice, quick turnaround.
@Medea, thanks! I have to pinch myself, I still can’t believe that it’s already arrived.
@ WestCoaster
Congratulations. The Halifax consulate continues its reputation for good service. I know there’s a theory that CLNs are sent out in batches but it still puzzles me how some are so slow to arrive and others arrive relatively fast. Happy yours was the latter. You should have a very restful sleep tonight. Sweet dreams!
WestCoaster & mettleman –
I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Congratulations, Westcoaster! Happy days 🙂
And lo and behold…
Just received an email from the Amsterdam Consulate, where I renounced. I emailed them a couple of weeks ago, to enquire about the CLN, and received a non-committal response just saying delay due to backlog, we’ll send it as soon as we receive it. But now they’ve emailed to say that the Consulate General has been notified that it has been approved!
Which is great because a) however long it still takes to get the actual CLN, the email in itself should be proof enough, if any bank questions me; and b) I felt at the time I renounced that the consulate staff were nice friendly people who wanted to be helpful – it’s so nice to get this email showing that’s true! Amicable ending, and all that. 🙂
Congrats to WestCoaster!
For those of us STILL awaiting word- there’s hope that at least some of our paperwork is done in a timely fashion (mine, now going on 10 months)…That, is ridiculous. EVERYONE should be done in a window of within 6 months, imho.
You’re free! 🙂
@EmBee, thanks! I posted a very positive consulate report about Halifax, they were wonderful. I have no idea how CLNs are processed, but I’m grateful to get mine so quickly. And, yes, I slept soundly last night!
@usxcanada, my drug of choice is chocolate — I love everything about it, except the fact it goes to my hips, ha ha.
@iota, thanks! And congrats on getting confirmation your CLN has been approved! Hopefully, it’ll soon show up in your mailbox.
@Jane, thanks! I will keep my fingers crossed that yours arrives soon. If a full year goes by and you still haven’t received it, you might want to follow up with the DoS/ACS in Washington. A few months ago, Pacifica777 posted a link to the DoS Telephone Directory: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/112065.pdf
Great that you’ve gotten a response regarding your CLN — almost as good as the real thing, iota. Ask and you shall receive in your case.
@ AD203
Thank you for sharing your incredibly compelling story with us. As you empathize with the trembling foreign workers you see, please know that all of us here empathize with you. We will be wishing, hoping, praying you get that vital visa extension so that you can complete the process to German citizenship. The world needs another bright German physicist and that should be you. It WILL be you if you hang in there. The view when you reach the goal will be many times more glorious when you glance back to look at all the barriers you pushed through.
@AD203 – best of luck with your US renunciation / German naturalization. Very sorry things have been so rough for you. I hope the future will be much brighter.