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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  2. Honestly, sometimes I think the US is deliberately going out of its way to drive people to either renounce/relinquish their citizenship or move back to the homeland. If there’s a simple way to do something you can almost guarantee the Americans WON’T do it that way as far as Americans living/working abroad goes. Crazy!

  5. February 11, 2016 , 12:04 pm
    Delivered
    PHILADELPHIA, PA 19101

    🙂

    It seems to be in the wrong Zip Code, but the hell with it.

    Goodbye IRS, and good riddance!

  7. @Medea – Yes! 🙂

    Can’t believe it’s over! Well, except the CLN but I can live without that.

    And I know my encounter with CBT/FATCA/FBAR/IRS and the rest of the Devil’s Alphabet has been easy compared to what many have experienced and are still experiencing.

  8. @iota

    Congrats!!!

    Definitely make sure you get your CLN, though — you might need that for banks, border crossings, estate issues, etc. Besides, you paid a ton of money and jumped through all sorts of hoops to get it, so it’s YOURS.

  9. @Westcoaster – thanks!

    I know what you mean but now it’s over, I find I’m not too bothered about the CLN.

    I was very worried (not to say scared stiff!) about everything when it first hit me, last summer – felt so threatened! – but now I’ve jumped through the hoops, filed the forms, and paid the $2350 (and got the receipt!), I have the satisfaction of knowing, and having the paperwork to demonstrate if necessary, that I’m no longer a US Person. I’m happy with that. 🙂

  10. @ iota
    Yay, it’s delivered and no doubt you’ve got a screenshot in storage. I’m 🙂 because you’re 🙂

  11. @iota

    Not to rain on your parade, but it’s best to err on the side of caution!

    You might not have an immediate need for the CLN, but one day your bank might demand it and providing all the supporting documentation that you went for an appointment and filed all the papers might not be enough. Worse yet, what if the US claims that they never issued you a CLN because your application was rejected, and that the letter informing you of this got lost. (I asked how likely it was to have a renunciation application rejected and was told that, although it was highly unlikely, the fine print is that paying the $2350 is no assurance of approval.) Relinquishments, of course, can and do get rejected.)

    The bottom line is that it’s important to follow up and get that CLN if you haven’t received it within a year of your Loss of Nationality appointment. Until you have your CLN, you have no way of proving the US approved your expatriation.

  12. On December 7, 2015, Pacifica said, “Krackerjack,

    Thanks for the info on Calgary’s current booking time. Seems crazy to me too, especially because it’s such an important thing for a person and other countries can do expatrations conveniently and expeditiously.

    Re your CLN not arriving yet. 15 months is really long, even for the North American Division of DoS/ACS (the department that handles CLNs.)

    You might want to follow up with DoS/ACS in Washington. Some Brockers have phoned their ACS Division Chief and got fast action — as long as the CLN was taking a long time [by DoS’ standards, which are pretty slow to begin with, but yours seems to fit the bill]. It seems that sometimes a file gets lost in the cracks and lurks there until someone brings it to their attention.

    The Division Chief for Western Hemisphere is Geoffrey Martineau, 202-285-6289 202-485-6289. Unfortunately, we don’t have e-mail addresses. The link to the DoS Telephone Directory (which also gives snail-mail addresses) is at http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/112065.pdf The ACS division office chiefs are on page OD-17 of the current directory.

    This telephone directory can also be accessed on the State Dept Forms, Procedure Manuals and Contact Info page, which is accessible under “Important Info” on the sidebar.”

    I was wondering if any of this info has changed. It has been nearly 17months and I still have not seen my CLN. I will be contacting them soon, but I wanted to make sure that this information was still accurate.

    Cheers,

    Rocky

  13. @Embee – Thank you!! Bet your boots I’ve got the screenshots – safely stored on my PC, upstairs in Dropbox, and on my mailserver. 🙂

  14. @WestCoaster – I appreciate your concern but I’m not worried. I have no reason to be afraid of being dumped by any of my banks, anymore than any of their other customers. I’m not a US Person anymore. FATCA no longer applies to me, and I don’t present any risk to my banks.

    The IRS would like us all to believe that a CLN is essential, but I don’t care what the IRS wants. They have no power over me, as I’m not a US citizen.

    Happy days!!!

  15. @iota

    Fair enough! In any case, it sounds like you’ve done your due diligence so hopefully you’ll get your CLN soon and it’ll be moot point 🙂

  17. @Westcoaster – yes, it’s only been four months, so by DoS standards it’s far from overdue. Truly scandalous!

    @Medea – good point, I’ll print a copy and keep it safe.

  18. Regarding FATCA letters and self-certification: following a discussion of this elsewhere, I’ve been thinking further about the implications of self-certifying.

    If a bank wants you to sign a W8-BEN form, or whatever it’s called, it means you have to sign under penalty of perjury. I am not going to do that. It’s not because it would be risky – essentially it’s meaningless – but I’ve jumped through the hoops and filled their forms and paid my $2350 not to be treated as guilty until proven innocent. So I’m darned if I’m now going to turn around and agree to potentially stand trial for perjury under the criminal law of a foreign country when I haven’t committed any crime or even been subpoenaed by a court. Let the IRS kick the bank in the backside and find out for themselves whether I’ve filed my forms and renounced, if they actually care. Which I very much doubt.

  19. Just a quick question …. I rid myself of my US citizenship in early December at the dear American Embassy in Bratislava … (they were so kind to give me an appointment – after facing a two year waiting list in my homebase of London – and THREE in Dublin). That went like a snap … which was grand. Have now had my last last US Tax Return (2015) filed with the 8398 and 8854 and, of course, FBAR. Just have to post the 8854 to the Treasury in PA which I am off to do now. Does anyone know – if I pay to have it signed on receipt – does the Department of the Treasury in the US do that? I thought I had read some people hereabouts having difficulty.

    Can I just say a HUGE thank you to ALL people associated with this Board who have been so kind in their support of my woeful cause. I am, I promise, deeply, DEEPLY grateful. You literally been life saving. Bless you ALL.

  20. @AD203
    1. You will not get the CLN at the consulate when you renounce. Once you renounce all the paperwork is sent to the State Dept in Washington for final approval. Only when the approval is given would a CLN be issued and sent to you via the consulate. What you will have – and you need to check with the German citizenship office if it would be enough – is a receipt for the renunciation fee of $2,350 that you have to pay. The receipt states clearly on it that it’s for renunciation so they may accept it as proof, but check to make sure. Otherwise you would have to wait until you receive your CLN so you could then show/provide a copy to the German office.

    2. You can file tax returns either before or after renouncing, it doesn’t matter. If you are below the reporting threshold for US tax you may not even need to file returns, only the 8854 eventually to exit the tax system properly. If you’re below the reporting threshold then you could add a note to the 8854 stating this is why you have filed no returns for the last 5 years – the period needed for the 8854 form.

  22. @AD203
    I renounced US citizenship and naturalised in Frankfurt in 2012. When I renounced at the Frankfurt consulate, I was told it would take approx. 4 weeks to get the CLN. After 5 weeks had passed and I hadn’t received it, I wrote a letter to the official assigned to my citizenship application (at the Regierungspräsidium Darmstadt) explaining the situation. They accepted this explanation and allowed me to naturalise prior to attaining the CLN. I was granted up to 2 years subsequent to the naturalization to then provide the CLN. In the end, it took 4 months to receive the CLN, and by that time I had already naturalised in Germany. I expect you should be able to do the same.

  23. @AD203, Yes the Consul/Vice Consul does sign the CLN when he prepares the paperwork, but he would not be able to give you a copy until the State Departmet has done its part back in Washington.

    Unfortunately, no one can tell you exactly how long it will take to get your CLN. Delivery dates vary wildly, but if you have a look here:

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Consulate-Report-Directory-2016.02.i.pdf

    You might find some recent reports on renunciations in Frankfurt which may give you some idea. But they would only be a general guide.

    I think you’ll find the German naturalisation people are very aware of the situation regarding American renunciations and will take into account the expected gap between the actual renunciation at the consulate and getting the CLN. The consul/vice-consul will give you a rough idea of how long he thinks it will take so you can let them know once he tells you. If it hasn’t arrived within the time frame given then do as notamused did and let them know – hopefully you’ll get an extension.

  24. Pickd this up off a blog posted over on the English Forum.

    “Formally renouncing U.S. citizenship can be costly: the current fee is $2,350 and must be paid to the Department of State’s Consular Services. However, between the ages of 18 and 181/2, individuals can renounce U.S. citizenship at no cost (if they also have not been U.S. residents for 10 taxable years before relinquishment) because they are not yet considered “covered expatriates.””

    http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/02/18/when-american-expats-dont-want-their-kids-to-have-u-s-citizenship/

    Anyone heard of this rule/reg? Could be useful for those in the right age range who want to renounce.

  25. I think they’ve mixed up two different things. Between 18 and 18.5, you only need to show 5 years of tax compliance to avoid covered expatriate status — the other two tests are irrelevant. But, being covered or not has no bearing on the $2350 fee to renounce/relinquish.

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