Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Vid,
To clarify comments above referring to your having applied for a US passport: You, yourself, wrote you that you applied for “the one for official use (the green passport).”
I’m assuming you’re referring to a Canadian official passport, as you travel on official Canadian govt business. The US govt only issues a US official passport for a USC travelling on official US govt business (and, FWIW, the Canadian official passport is green whereas the US equivalent is not).
So, I’m reading it that you never applied for a US passport at all. Super!
@Petros, I realize it’s what the IRS thinks, not the DOS—but it demonstrates a government agency giving out advice like that could give someone a valid reason to believe they are still US citizens until they turn in their papers. (which many people assume when if they renew a passport accidently.) Now we see even the DHS is harassing people about crossing the boarder without a CLN. My point is that it’s a plausible reason for someone who used and/or renewed a US passport to think they had to get a passport until they turn in their DS-4079 papers. So if a consular officer starts arguing that they did an affirmative act by using a passport since an expatriating act, you have something to show them says you thought it was required till you sign a form in front of them.
@BenPloni, please look carefully at my CLN. It says very clearly that I lost my citizenship on 28 February, the day I committed a relinquishing act according to immigration laws. Then, I went into the Consulate on April 7 to announce my relinqishment, which was the earliest appointment I could get. Thus, my loss of citizenship took place on the day I took the oath of citizenship. The Form 8854 announces a contradiction between immigration and tax law, pure and simple. The two laws cannot be reconciled and we shouldn’t even try, because the US has intentionally set it up in such a way as to benefit themselves and not to protect the former citizen. The border guard stuck on stupid who asks the question 10 times and gets the same response needs to be expulsed from Canada. Such people should not be allowed to operate inside our borders, especially not in our capital city. This is an insult.
See, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/04/16/my-certificate-of-loss-of-nationality-cln-has-arrived/comment-page-2/
Also related: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/19/forget-about-form-8854-filing-last-5-years-of-tax-etc-usa-law-establishes-a-right-to-unilateral-expatriation/ and posts linked to in this post.
@Vid I was very interested to hear your story. I am in a similar situation as I was born in th US to Canadian parents and moved back to Canada as a baby. Many years ago I worked for a branch of the federal government and I see this as my only way to relinquish. I have been avoiding travel to the US but would love to have that freedom again. It is difficult having to continuously deal with the burden of US citizenship. I agree that it would be best for you to go to the consulate in Toronto. If you chose to relinquish please let us know how it goes.
@Petros. Again I agree it’s the date on the CLN as you say, but these government workers are being ridiculous about the matter and until you can provide them a CLN, they’ll assume, for all practical purposes that you are a US citizen even if you do the act. Legally, I think you are right–the date is the date of the expatriating act, but we already see the DHS and IRS saying “Prove it–show me the CLN” to make it effective from their POV. I think until someone challenges one of them in court, it’s going to remain an ambiguous situation vis-a-vis dealing with the government. Remember I asked Halifax ACS if I should travel on a US or foreign passport to the states based on the shenigans DHS is up to, and the best answer they could give me is “we don’t know.”
@BenPloni, yes, you are right that they want proof. And in insisting on their Point of View, they trample upon the rights of thousands of Canadians who relinquished their citizenship decades ago, or who were never anything more than accidentally American, which means hardly American at all. In Canada we should insist that they change their line of questioning. The testimony of Vid shows that they have resorted to inappropriate harassment, and the ostensible purpose of this harassment is to increase the tax base of the United States. This is an act of aggression and a casus belli.
Thus, the appropriate response is to tar and feather such persons and show them the border. But the government of Canada has been emasculated and I doubt that we will see a strong response from our government.
Hey folks, do I put my SSN number on the embassy questionnaire or just say I don’t remember having one. It’s in my maiden name and either wasn’t ever used, or only for a summer job back in 1967. I’m leaning towards saying I don’t remember having one.
Medea,
I don’t remember you having one either. Having your maiden name for the social security number could just cause obstruction at your appointment.
Yeah, that was another thing I was thinking about calgary411. Names don’t match up, oops can’t do the renunciation thing today. Come back when you’ve sorted it out. I don’t remember having one sounds the better option to me.
Thanks Petros,
I browsed over the US embassy website and tried to find out more about the forms I would have to fill in. But couldn’t find anything. So I will carefully go through this thread to figure out what I need to do, in what order, and what form I must fill in.
I will keep you all posted,
I’m sure I’ll have more questions anyways,
Thank you all!
To pacifica777,
you are correct, I never applied for the US passport…..although I came real close! Because of all the issues at the border, I filled in the form, got the pictures, and I was going to visit the embassy when I started to read about issues for dual citizens. I was going to apply because I cannot use the green passport for personal travel and figured I would still get nagged using my personal passport.
It is a good thing I found out about you folks first. I was literally a few days away.
Vid.
@Vid,
Check out the Consulate Report Directory for good information on renunciation, relinquishment and the forms required for expatriation: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/.
I’ve been reading on the subject, now looking for advice.
Canadian parents, border town, father joined US Navy in 1960s. Parents resided in US during enlistment. Near the end of the pregnancy, my mother returned to her mother’s Canadian home, as my father was at sea. Drove across the border, to a US base half hour away, for my birth, as that was their medical coverage. Upon release from the hospital, my mother and I returned immediately to Canada. At about 2 months of age, my mother returned with me to the US home of my parents. Just over a year later, with my father’s enlistment period in the Navy complete, we returned to Canada. Upon that return, Canada provided me with a Canadian Registration of Birth Abroad certificate. I spent only about 1 year, as an infant, in the US.
I have travelled only on a Canadian passport. I have no SSN, I have never had a US passport, I have never worked in the US, and have not lived there since 1969. I have never crossed into the US as a US citizen. In 1991, upon inquiring, I was verbally told by the US Consulate in Toronto, that if I had voted in Canada, I had relinquished my US citizenship. (of course, we now know that NOT to be the case). I have never “declared” Canadian citizenship, as I received it at birth, despite my birth abroad. I have never had to swear an oath, as I’ve never had a government job.
Where to go from here? I am just now at the point in my life where it would be nice to take an annual winter vacation south. I want to be able to cross the US border as a Canadian only. Last time I crossed, the agent told me I needed to travel on a US passport. That will never happen.
Advice? FYI, mother deceased, father has dementia. They can’t speak, or provide info to US on my behalf.
The MOM.
I If you are adamant that you will never get a US passport, then there is nothing more for you to do. If you run into the same border guy, tell him that a US consul informed you that you had relinquished your citizenship.
You could try to get a CLN based on a verbal warning from a US consul but that seems unlikely.
You could renounce. In that case there are those who maintain you would have to contact the IRS and possibly file 5 yrs. of US taxes. You would not have to meet the income or net worth tests.
KalC, I wonder if the US would accept my Registration of Birth Abroad as naturalization? As far as I’m concerned, I am relinquishing, not renouncing. Per their (incorrect) infomation in 1991, I took no steps to shed myself of their yoke around my neck, as they said there wasn’t one. It’s infuriating. I’ve just booked a March appointment in Toronto. I may swear an oath of citizenship in front of my local mayor, for good measure.
I’ve wondered in the past whether, in cases like this, the State Department could be talked into issuing a backdated CLN based on the person’s first Canadian passport application as an adult.
A Canadian passport application asks you to sign off on the statement:
The (US) Immigration and Naturalization Act says:
@ The Mom, You could just simply skip the trips to the US and find a destination further South; far warmer places exist. I hated both South Texas and the Florida Keys in December–too frigin cold.
Or you could just simply try to explain your relinquishment based on the oath on the CDN Passport (no one has tried this that I know of); or renounce for $450. There should be no question of tax compliance in your case since you were born with the citizenship of a second country (i.e., of Canada). If the IRS sends you a bill, you can just simply ignore it or send a letter saying that you were born a Canadian and 8854 doesn’t apply to you.
The Mom Please let us know what happens. I know a (possibly former) US citizen who lost her citizenship in the 70’s when she became Canadian. Then voluntarily regained her US citizenship as a result of the Afroyim case.
Subsequently got a US passport, and filed taxes for 2 or 3 years. A US consul told her she must travel on US passport or she would lose her US citizenship. (this was probably incorrect advice.) After 5 years, she changed her mind, never renewed US passport and travelled then on with a Can. passport. Is this good enough for a CLN??
@a broke man…
Thanks for the passport reminder. Will add that to the DS 4079.
@Petros…
I don’t want to pay them $450 to renounce. I already have to fork out over $700 for my husband and I, just to fly to Toronto to the appointment at the consulate. As for vacationing further south, I’d like to, but it’s not really in the budget. And I would really like to see the Grand Canyon.
@KalC…
I will post here, what the result is. It will be interesting to see which they choose as the expatriating act. The passport declaration, the reconfirming oath of citizenship in front of the mayor, voting in any election after geing told doing so is an expatriating act? We’ll see.
If they won’t accept relinquishment, I don’t think I’ll renounce. I just will never set foot in the US again. Their economic loss.
*after Being told
Typo on the iPad
Sure wish my oath to Queen and country from my days as a Brownie would work.
@The Mom
Welcome to IBS. My situation is similar to yours: born in US to Canadian parents in the 60’s, left as an infant. My understanding from research and corresponding with an immigration lawyer is that relinquishment is not an option, renunciation is, but requires tax compliance first.
Like yourself, I would like to be able to travel to US on my Canadian passport, and intend to do so until the hassles outweigh the benefits. Be careful in your pursuit of ‘denying your US citizenship’.
I was interested in finding out what the current waiting time is for relinquishing, so I sent the Swiss Embassy this e-mail.
***************************
Good morning,
I would like to confirm my intent of relinquishing my United States nationality by voluntarily performing the following act according to the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(4)(A)).
“accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state”
Please send me all the forms and information needed for this procedure.
Please also inform me of the current waiting time for completing this procedure.
I’m aware that this relinquishing procedure is not subject to the 450 USD fee for renunciation.
Thank you,
******************************
The following morning I received this reply:
Dear *********,
Thank you for your message. Attached please find our information package regarding the renunciation process. If you wish to make an appointment in our Embassy, please call 031 357 7011 between 14.00 and 16.00.
Currently, the waiting time for an appointment is ca. 4-5 weeks, after your visit in our office, the time for the processing of your case will be another 4-6 weeks. However, a renunciation is effective as of the date of the appointment in our Embassy.
Please note that for the relinquishing or renouncing of your US citizenship the fee of $450.- applies.
Kind regards
American Citizen Services
US Embassy
Sulgeneckstrasse 19
3007 Bern, Switzerland
+41 31 357 7011
************************************
As you can see it looks like the Swiss Embassy only requests 1 appointment, but the 450 USD fee is to be paid regardless of either relinquishing or renouncing.
I guess the state department has found out that printing CLN’s could be a cash cow!
I’d dispute the $450 with them saying the official schedule only mentions $450 for renouncing, not relinquishing.
A few days ago I posted this in the Relinquishment and Renunciation Data section, but I think it’s more appropriate here:
Has anyone noticed this before? It says the presumption of intent to maintain American citizenship by a person committing certain expatriating acts ( like acquiring a foreign nationality is under revision. Could this mean they intend to reverse the presumption? That might speed up the relinquishment process.
7 FAM 1222 ADMINISTRATIVE PRESUMPTION
(CT:CON-407; 06-29-2012)
a. In light of the U.S. Supreme Court decisions in Vance v. Terrazas (1980) and Afroyim v. Rusk (1967) (summarized in 7 FAM 1200 Appendix B), in order to expedite the resolution of cases, in 1990 the Department adopted the administrative presumption found in 22 CFR 50.40 that a U.S. citizen/noncitizen national intends to retain U.S. nationality when he or she commits certain expatriating acts. That administrative presumption is in the process of being revised in 22 CFR Part 50, and includes when a U.S. citizen:
(1) Is naturalized in a foreign state (INA 349(a)(1); or
(2) Takes an oath of allegiance to a foreign state (INA 349(a)(2)); or…
No. This will not change.