Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@alex,
Congratulations on receiving your CLN. Give you comment here or at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/ or at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ — and we will update your information on the database and in the Consulate Report Directory. There are links to both on the right-hand side of the main page of Isaac Brock.
First of all I want to thank everyone on this site who gave me tons of useful information before and during the process. Really amazing bunch of people.
I renounced in Germany. The people at the consulate were super efficient and helpful. A role model for government employees. I only needed one interview and just a one month wait to get it. The renunciation process itself was fast and i was in and out of consulate wihtin 45 minutes. The consular staff were great.
I had emailed all the paperwork to them beforehand and that facilitated the process.
The CLN itself took almost 6 months to get which was lengthy but that is a State dept issue. the consulate advised me immediately when they received the CLN.
@alex,
We’re pleased that this site helped you, as it has helped so many, for making your decision regarding and knowing the process of renunciation. At which German consulate did you renounce: Berlin, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Leipzig, Munich? What was the date of your first contact and then the month and year of your first (and only) appointment? What was the date of receiving your CLN and the effective date (presumably the date of your renunciation appointment)?
It’s always encouraging for others to know that staff of a consulate were great and the process itself was fast / efficient. We find most are and wish that all were such.
Once again, congratulations. Your report will help others along their path. Thanks!
I renounced in Frankfurt. First contact with them was in May 2012 and appointment in August 2012.
I got the CLN in January 2013 . Correct- The effective date was the date of renunciation.
Thanks for the congrats.
There is some bad news also which may be of interest to some of you about entering USA with ESTA post renunciation. Not sure if this is the place to post ???? @Calgary- maybe i can write you separately and you can decide . It may help some of you
@alex,
Any information that you have about entering the US with ESTA after renunciation will be useful and here is a good place to share that. Perhaps a good place to include is with general information on the Consulate Report Directory. Awareness of any aspect of renunciation or relinquishment is so important — so we’ll appreciate your sharing that. Thanks once again!
Never sure where to make a post…but want to provide an update on a Library and Archives Canada request I made recently.
The background…when I applied for Canadian citizenship in 1984, I was given a letter advising me that if I became Canadian that I would lose my US citizenship. I did not keep that letter, unfortunately. I have a relinquishment appointment in May, and so have been trying to find a copy of that letter, to support my claim that I new I was losing my US person status when I became a Canadian.
I first contacted the Library and Archives Canada via email. They did some digging, and provided me with quite a good response. They could not find what I was looking for, but told me there was a restricted file dated from 1974-1990 on dual nationality with the US. I paid $5 and filed an Access to Information request. I got a very timely response. The form only gives you a small paragraph to explain what you are looking for, but I was able to talk to the Senior Analyst assigned to my file. I got a reply by mail within two weeks, stating
“we have carefully searched our records and were unsuccessful in identifiying any records regarding your request. We have found no evidence that the Canadian government was giving guidance to US citizens when they applied for Canadian citizenship that they would lose their US citizenship. We regret that we are unable to respond more favourably to your request”.
Now, they only searched the one file from the Department of External Affairs. I will follow-up with the analyst or librarian to ask if there is a way to see if this same information might exist in the CIC files. The archivist and analyst have said that any records relating to US-Canadian matters would be in external affairs files, but my sense is that those of us who were warned, were warned by CIC. I know others have posted about getting verbal warnings.
All this to say, I have not given up on my search through Canadian government archived files for the evidence I am seeking. I am realizing that the letter may have been given to me by US officials, but I can’t think of any reason why I would have been in touch with them, and hence my memory, from almost 30 years ago is that it was the Canadian officials who gave me the letter. I could also make a similar search through US archives, however I am somewhat uncomfortable with doing that given that I am in the midst of the CLN process. Nonetheless I will see if there is a similar archive service in the US that might help shed light on the past.
fyi, I just received my Swiss passport. The place of birth is not listed in this passport. I also lost my middle name in this process. Instead of the place of birth, they have “Place of origin” (Heimatort / Lieu d’origine / Luogo di attieneza).
This “place of origin” is a Swiss concept. It is not where you were born but where your family originally came from. For those of us who have become Swiss, it is the town we live in at the time of naturalisation. For most Swiss, it’s not the town they currently live in nor the town they were born in rather the town their family lived in several hundred years ago.
I wonder how Swiss fill out these customs forms? The forms you have to fill out when flying into the UK, US, Canada, etc. as for the “place of birth”. If the Swiss traveller writes “Zurich” but his passport lists “Davos” as his “place of origin”, I think he would be questioned on this point.
I’ve read elsewhere in this blog about Canadians with U.S: place of birth beeing hassled by the U.S: authorities when entering the U.S: with non-US ids. I think my new Swiss passport avoids that problem.
What documents does one need to take to a consulate meeting to relinquish? Besides the necessary forms would this include Canadian passport, Canadian citizenship papers, birth certificate, marriage certificate, spouses birth certificate, SIN# with card, etc.? If applicable are divorce papers needed? There never has been a US passport. Is anything else required? Thank you.
Joe Zinga I took all those sorts of things with me when I renounced at the Bern embassy in Switzerland recently, but they weren’t needed. It was just the forms, any passports you hold and your citizenship papers if applicable. That said, every embassy is different so take them all with you just in case! Which embassy are you planning to relinquish at?
@ Medea. We have a confirmed appointment in Calgary for April 17 @ 10am. We booked it on-line and got an email confirmation. We did not tell them the purpose and no instructions have been sent. Do we need to email them to get instructions re relinquishing? We have the necessary forms completed and will take them with us along with all the required documents. Anything else we need to do? I am a little worried because I note some posts from people who were told they could not be seen on the appointment day in Calgary because of the volume coming from Vancouver. I do not wish to create a problem by e-mailing them. Thanks
Joe Zinga if you have a read here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.03.20.1doc.pdf
(page 16 onwards) you’ll see reports from others who have renounced/relinquished at Calgary.
I would e-mail copies of your filled in forms, passport/s and citizenship papers to them just to be on the safe side and make it clear that your appointment is for a relinquishment not a renunciation. Then if they need anything else they can contact you.
@Alex, can you explain more clearly about what esta problems renunciants could face with possible future visits to the U.S.? One of my biggest fears is that I may now find it much more difficult to visit the U.S. now that I’ve renounced.
I even worry that my renouncement may be rejected and that I may never receive my CLN…this sure is a nail-biting time!! I wouldn’t put it past the U.S. to become increasingly obstructionist to put more people off going through with expatriation.
To sum up, I am thus in a sense factor limbo period until I get my CLN and am able to finally file 8854 next year… I’m still very nervous that I’m going to encounter further obstacles before it’s all finally sorted!
@monalisa1776, I wouldn’t worry about it. So far, the Reeds amendment hasn’t been enforced, a google search doesn’t return anything the topic, the US media seems to have retreated from expat issues and the reported renunciation figures show that the US government doesn’t want this to be a publicized issue. As such, it is highly unlikely for the US to prevent minnows from spending tourist dollars. In fact, the latest news focuses rather on bringing foreign investments to America through retirement tax savings.
As it stands right now, maybe 100+ Americans want for me to attend my mother’s delayed funeral in the US this year and they wouldn’t be very happy if their government prohibited a veteran who fled unemployment from showing up since he renounced to have a local checking account.
I just read today that at 150 (!) US airports the pilots have to land without the assistance of air traffic controllers, because the latter have been put on leave due to sequestration.
@SwissPinoy, thanks for trying to reassure me! I agree that it would make the U.S. look really bad if they start harassing citizens of other countries, even if they’re former U.S. citizens. And like you say, they’remaining playing it down in the media.
@calgary
On one trip to USA no problem at all. On a recent trip a different story.
The CBP airport officer told me I need to wait for further processing and another armed officer came to the booth to pick me up and escort me to a back room. I was there for 1 hour incomunicado (not allowed to use cellphone and couldnt advise people waiting for me at airport). At that point not knowing anything I was scared! Maybe i am a chicken but I was scared;)
When they finally called me the CBP asked me where I was born. Then why I dont use/have USA passport and then when I said I renounced I was asked why I renounced. I answered that I have allegiance to another country where I live most of my life.. A few more questions about it and then I was stamped and given the customary Welcome to USA:) greeting and allowed to enter USA as normal.
Let me add that the CBP officers were all polite and professional. I had my CLN but they did not ask to see it.
Everyone should keep this in mind so as not to be afraid if it happens to you.
Alex, I think I’d have said it was none of their business why I renounced when they asked. Then I’d have shown them the copy of the CLN, pointed out that the State Department approved it and that I’m here as a tourist just like any other foreign visitor.
Frankly polite and profesional or not, it’s inexcuseable that they took you away to a room and left you there for an hour. They could/should have done all those checks at the control booth. What border point was it?
@Alex, doesn’t sound so bad then, after all, though sounds as though they’ll enjoy the occasional power trip/mind game…:/
@monalisa1776 … you worry too much ! stay the course 🙂
Thanks for the report of the border incident you experienced, alex. We can expect to see this from time to time just as we have had reports of border guards challenging “some” who show a US birthplace on their non-US passport– for some years now . I was one of them. Knowing that this can happen and being prepared for how we’ll deal with it, always carrying a copy of our most-important CLN, will give us some control over our own situations. That we are educated enough to not be intimidated by such is so important.
@Medea
I disagree with you about that. Why provoke them when they are being polite and probably just doing their job. And ESTA does not guarantee you the right to enter USA.
@monalisa- not so bad after the fact:) the uncertainty and incomunicado can be nerve wracking though:)
Now that I have a CLN I’m expecting to be delayed, like Alex, on entering the US. That’s one reason I plan to visit the US as little as possible from now on. I can spend my tourist time and money elsewhere.
@Anon anon, nor would I except that I still have family over there…my parents are in their 70s and would be devastated if I no longer went to visit them. Though they’re sympathetic to my problems, they’ve both expressed concerns that my expatriation could make visiting them difficult. It’s the main reason why it’s been such a heart-wrenching decision.
Absolutely, AnonAnon. It’s a big world out there to enjoy, giving our tourist money and even our purchases of discounted real estate. I have also pulled any investment out of the US. If all of us did that, it would make an economic statement.