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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. @KalC

    You wrote:

    If you had applied for a US passport at that time, you would have been denied on the grounds that you had relinquished by behaving as a Canadian rather than as an American.

    That’s a huge find. What law are you referring to? The only one that I know of that was similar to your statement was INA 350, repealed on Oct 10, 1978. @Bill was too young for it to apply before it was repealed. One had to have been born before Oct 10, 1953.

  2. I’m referring to state department policy at that time. When someone applied for a US passport at a foreign consulate, they were asked if they had performed any of the expatriating acts in force at that time. if they had, they were judged on the preponderance of evidence as to whether or not they intended to keep or relinquish their US citizenship. If in the judgement of the consul, the intent to keep was not there, a new passport was refused.

  3. i am a US citizen who has lived in Canada for 42 years, I’ve filed 5 years US income tax and FBAR;s, i have a company and will be considered a covered Expat. I am preparing to renounce next year and have met with us tax lawyers, US and Cad accountants and have tried to do lots of reading on this site. i will continue to do research on Form 8854 and look at legal strategies and probably get an analysis and calculation of the exit tax. Yes, i have gone from shock, fright and now anger. I have worked very hard and paid all my Canadian taxes and now to reach retirement and find this waiting is beyond belief. My concern now is that my daughter who is a dual citizen (born in Canada and lived and worked in the US from 2005-2014) may have a difficult time relinquishing, but might be ok renouncing. There has been some talk about avoiding the exit tax if you are a dual citizen. i don’t know if this will apply to her (she is under the $2 Million). I’am at the airport travelling to the United States today and for the first time, i was ashamed of showing my US Passport.

  4. @Lioness

    I believe we met today at the Vancouver tax info session hosted by John Richardson and me. I have no idea who you are, but nice to meet you, Lioness. I know what you mean about the passport – I recently travelled to the US and felt like an imposter having to use my US one, but who needs the hassle if being told that we should be using it if we don’t. Nice to see you here.

  5. hi- yes, we did meet today. it was an extremely informative meeting. I am trying to gather as much info as i can. nice to be able to come to this site and can’t say enough for Calgary 411. i have donated to the Alliance and would gladly give more at a later date.

  6. After more than 100 days my wife’s bad dream is now over. She has her CLN.

    The journey was:
    Heard about the FBAR issue in late summer 2011
    Got into the 2011 OVDI and had the submission date delayed
    Spent many anxious weeks (both of us) gathering documentation etc
    Submitted 100s of pages of tax forms, documents and explanatory documents to the IRS.
    Faced a potential large FBAR penalty, but no taxes
    Waited more than 500 days, before being contacted by a helpful agent
    Opted out of the OVDI and into the Streamlined Procedure
    Case was resolved quickly – no back taxes, fines or penalties!

    Read and got all information to renounce. Process took 4 visits, 2 of them as a result of their mistakes.
    Submitted all 2013 tax and other forms assuming renunciation was approved.
    Heard that her case was approved (10 months after the oath) and picked up CLN
    A week later she was asked to return because they made a mistake on the CLN!

    So the process took 6 visits – 3 extra appointments because of incompetence! So who is in charge – one of Mr. Disney’s rodents?

    Although this is finally over it has wasted a huge amount of our time, and caused us both a lot of anxiety and resentment towards the US and the IRS. Had we not been able to handle all this ourselves some tax professional would have pocketed $10-15K.

    I have a lot of sympathy for all those who are still caught up in this mess or will have to endure the costs, anxiety and disruption it causes.

  7. Lioness, it is good to see you back at Isaac Brock.

    I have just answered another commenter here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/expat_tax/comment-page-76/#comment-2076622).

    My concern now is that my daughter who is a dual citizen (born in Canada and lived and worked in the US from 2005-2014) may have a difficult time relinquishing, but might be ok renouncing. There has been some talk about avoiding the exit tax if you are a dual citizen. i don’t know if this will apply to her (she is under the $2 Million).

    Your daughter was born a dual US / Canadian (born in Canada to a US citizen mom). Yes, she would have to renounce as those born dual cannot claim relinquishment (unless they work for and have taken an oath of allegiance for a government agency). This part of the answer I just gave applies would apply to your daughter if she chooses to expatriate:

    Exception for dual-citizens and certain minors.

    Dual-citizens and certain minors (defined next) will not be treated as covered expatriates (and therefore will not be subject to the expatriation tax) solely because one or both of the statements in paragraph (1) or (2) above (under Who Must File) applies. However, these individuals will still be treated as covered expatriates unless they file Form 8854 and certify that they have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of expatriation as required in paragraph (3) above (under Who Must File).
    Certain dual-citizens.

    You may qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements.

    You became at birth a U.S. citizen and a citizen of another country and you continue to be a citizen of, and are taxed as a resident of, that other country.

    You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 years during the 15-tax-year period ending with the tax year during which the expatriation occurred. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.

    No matter your daughter’s net worth, unless she DOES NOT file Form 8854, she will not be deemed a “Covered Expatriate”.

    PS: Thanks for your kind words. Glad you met Bubblebustin and John Richardson. They have a lot of good information to help you and others make the hard decisions. One step at a time. Stay strong and stay tuned. Safe journey!!

  8. CanCan,

    Thanks for relating your wife’s case here. What an horrendous experience for her and for you. At what Consulate or Embassy did your wife expatriate? Putting that report into the Consulate Report Directory maintained by Pacifica (on the right-hand side bar of the home page or http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/) would help others who take the same route.

    Congratulations — I’m glad your wife’s long and anxious ordeal is over.

  10. @KCal, yes, but most people who knew about the “ban” on dual citizenship probably did the same as me, just didn’t tell the US embassy when they applied for a new passport. When I first enquired about getting a British one (late 60s/early 70s), the person at the British passport office that I talked to warned me the Americans might see it as giving up US citizenship – if they found out. So the simple answer was to get the British passport and never mention it when later renewing the American one. Which is what I did ever after.

  11. @CanCan, congratulations to your wife. What a messy ordeal you had to go through to get there. But it’s done now so go out and celebrate.

  12. Has anyone had any luck getting a retroactive CLN? I lived in the US on a green card for 4 years in the 1980s and returned to Canada in 1988. In 1994 I attached a letter to my 1993 US tax return stating that I was revoking my resident alien status and would no longer be filing US tax returns. I never received any response to that letter. I would like to now get a CLN back-dated to that 1994 revocation. That might be possible but I´m concerned that the IRS would ignore a retroactive CLN date. Any thoughts on this?

  13. @bdwight, you can’t get a CLN because you’re not a US citizen. There is no document available similar to a CLN for Green Card holders who revoke/cancel their US status.

    I don’t know if there were any specific forms you should have filled in to revoke your Green Card like there is today, but frankly I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s too long ago for the IRS to have any claim on you and you don’t have a US birthplace so your bank isn’t going to be asking questions. Just enjoy your life and forget all this nonsense the rest of us are having to put up with; you’re the lucky one.

  14. @bdwight, as long as you don’t talk to your Canadian bank manager inquisitor about your US problem, I don’t think you have one. Just deny being a US person. That is correct and I doubt you have anything to worry about.

  15. @calgary411 (regarding reply to Lioness)

    “Your daughter was born a dual US / Canadian (born in Canada to a US citizen mom). Yes, she would have to renounce as those born dual cannot claim relinquishment (unless they work for and have taken an oath of allegiance for a government agency).”

    Moreover, the daughter worked in the USA for about 9 years. If she were to relinquish, she would be considered an illegal alien in the USA for those 9 years. That’s not particularly a problem as long as she stays in Canada but it could result in her being barred from re-entering the USA for 10 years, even for brief tourist or business visits.

  16. I should know the answer to this but I don’t. For a woman who took her husband’s surname after getting married, what name appears on the CLN? Her maiden name, her married name or both? Let’s assume that she became a Canadian citizen after getting married, in case that makes any difference.

  17. @Hazy, it’ll be your married name as that’s the name you’ll be applying for the CLN with.

  19. @Hazy, you’re very welcome. Now, if only all the other questions could be answered so easily (sigh).

  20. Hi I have some questions about the relinquishment process. Here is my situation: I was born in the US, moved to Canada when I was really young and got my Canadian citizenship before I turned 18. I worked for the municipal government before and after I turned 18.

    I’m pretty sure I qualify for relinquishment under 349(a)4, but it would be nice to have a confirmation. Would the date of relinquishment be the date that I turned 18? Do I have to fill out the form 8854? I haven’t earned enough money a year to have to fill out the income tax form (I’m still in school), but my bank account might have exceeded 10k. I’m also confused about whether I need to fill out past tax forms/FBARs.

    Thank you!

  23. Meteor. Your situation is relatively simple. You could make an appointment and renounce your citizenship. If you like, fill in 8854 but you can honestly say you have been compliant for 5 years even tho you don’t need to file the 5 yrs of returns. You are compliant because your income was low enough that you were not obliged to file. Filing FBARs is optional. If you do, fine- if you don’t no one will bother you.

  25. Regarding 8854 and FBARs – personally, after relinquishing I’d probably go ahead and fill out the form and file the 2-3 years’ worth of FBARs, primarily because it would be pretty easy and it certainly couldn’t hurt. In my mind there seems to be a fair bit of uncertainty about the consequences of failing to send in FBARs and this would make the small effort worthwhile to me. Every situation is different, of course. It’s good that you’re doing your homework, first.

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