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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. I have just now e-mailed Halifax Consulate for an appointment seeking a backdated CLN. I have not posted any comments here since feb. 10TH. The reason is that all this time I was waiting for my Oath of Allegiance of 1972 from Library and Archives in Ottawa. I found it to be a long 5 weeks but at the same time I feel very lucky to have this in my possession to work with. They actually found a second Oath of Allegiance in my file from 1973 when I changed jobs to a different Division in the Deparment.
    If you don’t recall my story is posted in Part 1 of this blog ” Ask your questions ” on Feb. 9th.
    @ Pacifica777, when you answered to one of my posts you suggested a Statement letter to expand on and bolster our DS-4079; I have this somewhat ready but I was wondering if this needs to be notorized by a Notary Public as was mentioned here some time ago.

  2. @Pacifica
    Thanks for the hat tip. Hopefully some readers will find the links useful. I only spent about 20 mins looking for them so I’m sure there’s many more.

  3. @ Authentic,

    That’s great that you have you’ve gotten your oaths and sent off your booking request.

    I’m not sure if notarisation is necessary or not, and I hope someone will reply definitively. I think some relinquishers may have submitted non-notarised statements as some have referred to their statement and some to their affidavit.

    The DOS manuals are a bit ambiguous. The manual for renunciation (1260) refers to “any statement of reasons for renouncing must be made in a separate affidavit.”
    But the manual for s.1 relinquishments (1210) and (1220) doesn’t mention affidavit, only statement.

    Personally (not that it matters!) since I haven’t found it stated that notarisation is required, I’ve wondered about that – is it really necessary? – because one’s statement is basically elaborating on the 4079, which is sworn, and the whole procedure is really quite matter-of-fact, not adversarial – basically if it adds up, it adds up. But that’s just me musing.

    It would be really good, though, if someone who did not have their statement notarised replies to your question, because if it’s not necessary, that would be good to know (save $40 and a trip to the notary).

  4. @authentic,
    At my appointment in Vancouver, I presented a written Statement that was not notarized. The clerk attached the statement to the DS-4079.

  5. Thanks, Tiger!

    I didn’t think notarisation was necessary, and was pretty sure people had said they’d presented non-notarised statements, but wasn’t completely sure.

    I had mine notarised, but that was over a year ago, when the process was really mysterious to me, so I was erring on the side of caution to dot every i and cross every t. Since then I’ve come to feel that I didn’t really need to have done that.

    Anyway, if people can save the money (and one more errand in this pesky quest), that’s great!

    On this topic, another good reason to write a statement, besides bolstering my 4079, was it felt great to throw the kitchen sink at them!

  6. @Authentic
    I provided a non-notarized written statement when I relinquished in Calgary. The consular officer had me sign it and attached it to form 4079. I don’t know if they even read the statement but I agree with Pacifica – it felt good to write it. The relinquishment resulted in a backdated CLN, so that’s all I care about

  7. Broken Man, As far as I can see it’s not a registered company in either the UK or Ireland.

  8. @Pacifica, Tiger and hijacked, Thank you very much for the info. I now feel more confident that I’m ready. I feel the same way as you about writing the Statement Letter. It gives us the chance to amplify our explanation of any particular item which otherwise would be difficult to do on the DS-4079.
    I have been educating myself more lately on the IBS site ( while waiting for Archives Canada to sort out their difficulties in adequately serving the public ) and I am filled with gratitude for the help you people provide. It gives me a lot of expert advise from people who already lived through this. Thanks again everybody. I’ll let you know how it goes.

  9. Now that I have renounced as of March 18, I am very relieved, but i am not clear on the next bit . Maybe some one whose done it already can help me out.
    I know I have to submit all the usual stuff for 2012, since i was a citizen for the whole year. But what about 2013, Will I fill out a 1040, etc for the income from the first 77 days. Do I take the usual deductions. How do I calculate the tax? I usually use a FTC to reduce the tax to 0. I assume i will have to prorate the FTC for the proportion of income I made while a citizen. I have always done all the forms by myself, with a bit of advice. I’d hate to have to start paying a tax preparer now.
    Will I have to submit FBARS and 8938’s as of the day I renounced?
    And then there is the 8854. I am not a covered expatriate, since I am a tax compliant dual national living in the country of my birth. It seems like logically, I shouldn’t have to complete any of the form past that section, but there is nowhere that it says that. Why do they need all that other stuff about my income for the year and my net worth, if I’m filing 1040’s FBAR’s etc.
    I see the current form is only for people expatriating up to Dec 31 2012, so maybe it will change, but I find the present form very confusing

  10. @Cananuckdoc, I share your concerns, as also renounced earlier this month. I wish now that I’d done it last year but what’s for done is done. Let’s hope that the 8854 for 2013 isn’t made more difficult to file; otherwise, I could see my accountant doubling my bill but at least it will hopefully be the final year!

  11. CanuckDoc if you have been doing it yourself until now you won’t have the least bit of trouble. In the spring of 2014 you fill in a 1040 for 2013. Put down a reasonable amount for your income for 77 days. Prorate any FTCs in the ratio 77/365. You shouldn’t owe any taxes if you haven’t had to pay in the past. Remember, you only have to make a best effort. It is unlikely they will question it. If they do, so what? You do not have to submit a 1040NR for the balance of the year unless you have US source income for which a non USC would file.

    If you have been submitting fbars, then do it one more time. Petros has argued that fbars are none of their business at this stage. It really doesn’t matter either way. The really important thing is that you have chosen to sop playing the game.

    For you, the 8854 is really easy. Fill in part I. Go to part IV

    line 1 “not applicable”
    line 2 “not applicable”
    line 3 yes
    line 4 yes- note the negative in the question which naturally makes it less comprehensible.
    line 5 no
    line 6 yes. Sign your name and you are free.

    THAT’S IT. Easy Eh?

  12. @KalC
    Thanks, that is what i thought I would do although I haven’t figured out how I will come up with a tax owing number that will keep the IRS happy, so that i can use my ample FTC’s to offset it. Unfortunately, one year I miscalculated my tax, and got a bill for several thousand dollars because the agents are not allowed to look at your actual FTC calculation to see that you have lots of available FTC. It took several phone calls to get it sorted out.

    As to the 8854, that is exactly what I think I ought to have to do, but that is not, in fact what it says. It does say, in effect, that if you are not a covered expat (which I’m not) you don’t do Part V section B. But there is section C (to which assume i can just say “no” so that is the end of that). Then it says that everyone who expatriates in 2012 has to do part V, which seems silly and unnecessarily complicated in my case, but I don’t want to do anything that might be labelled as not completing the 8854, so I can put this behind me for good and get on with my life. Maybe they will get rid of that bit for 2013. I hope so, but I suspect not. That would be much too to sensible.

    I suppose I shouldn’t worry about it until I see the next years forms

  13. CanuckDoc. I figured out where your clinic in NS is. Does it have an e mail or a website? I can send you good information privately. I am interested because I am also a canuck doc. (married to a USC)

  14. Can someone advise, please : As an accidental american (I am Canadian), I will be relinquishing this status based on a 1979 oath in a few weeks. Will I have to pay $450.00 to the consulate? And, once I get the CLN, backdated to 1979, will I have to file taxes for the past 5 years? for the years from 1979 to 1984? for years 1979 to 1989? I can’t seem to find the answer. Thank you, in advance for any help available.

  16. Katherine. A poster on IBS named ‘LAGOON’ relinquished in 1985. He consulted 3 different lawyers. All 3 plus many others on this site agree you don’t need to contact the IRS and you don’t need to file a thing.

    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/02/16/pre-1995-relinquishers-and-the-irs-three-recent-legal-opinions/

    You lost your American citizenship in 1979. All you are doing now is informing the state dep’t. Your CLN should not cost you anything. Lucky you!!

  17. Does anyone happen to know if, during the CLN application and interview process, it is necessary to disclose whether the applicant (US born person who took the Cdn citizenship oath in 1973) has Cdn born children?

  18. A second question. Does anyone happen to know if swearing the Canadian Oath of Allegience in 1992, as a federal civil servant, would qualify as relinquishment of accidental US citizenship acquired at birth inside Canada but where there was one US parent and one Canafian parent? This person was unaware they were potentially a US citizen.

  19. @Elcee,

    No, your interview will only be about you. You will not be asked (at least should not be asked — don’t lose sleep over it) to disclose whether you as a US born person who became a Canadian citizen in 1973 have Canadian born children (who will, unfortunately, have been conveyed automatic US citizens by their birth to you — unless you are a single US citizen parent (and the father is not a US citizen) and you resided in the US for less than 10 years, or at least 5 of which were after the age of 14 (per this handy-dandy chart, summarizing the rules: http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/citizenbybirth.html#Chart%20to%20Determine%20Citizenship%20Rules

    Will you be claiming relinquishment rather than renunciation? This required form (DS-4079) for relinquishment asks “Have you registered your children as citizens of the United States?” http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf

  20. Elcee,

    Here are the US rules regarding http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120540.pdf gives the US rules for Loss of Nationality and Taking Up a Position in a Foreign Government. If US citizenship was automatically conveyed to a child born in Canada by virtue of the parent US citizenship, he/she will have been born a dual citizen of Canada and the US. For dual citizens, there is only the possibility of renunciation rather than relinquishment (as I read it).

  21. I don’t see the necessity of providing a separate written statement, notarized or not, with the 4079 form. You don’t need to write a book on it – there’s room on the 4079 form to say what needs saying if you write small. And if you do provide a separate statement it will accompany the 4079 which is signed at the hearing so no need for a separate (expensive) notarization.

  22. I see a lot of people commenting on renouncing US citizenship, but not a lot on relinquishing. I would like to know if anyone has relinquished and how it went.

  24. I am wondering if you relenquish do you still have to file tax? I don’t know anything about how to file tax in the US. Any advice would be appreciated!

  25. @Lovecanada,

    I take it you’re referring to applying for a CLN based on having acquired citizenship in another country with the intent of terminating your US citizenship by doing so.

    To help people answer this, would you provide a little more info, please? Did you already acquire Canadian citizenship? If so, was it before 1994?

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