Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Mark Twain: Actually those numbers were form the “Before June 4” expatriation date.
Testing…I seem to have lost a post here.
Tom Benedict, thanks for the IRS info.
Please confirm that I have properly understood.
IRS recognizes the CLN backdate (date of the original act of expatriation, like acquiring another citizenship) for relinquishers prior to 2004, and if they pass the “rich” test for their average income of the five years preceding that date, they make no more claims regarding an obligation to file?
Example: My CLN will be backdated to 1979, and I was definitely not rich. So I’m home free, nothing to fear from IRS zombies?
I know that under the current law they can’t come and get me, but it would be nice to know that they won’t be sending nasty letters either.
Old&Simple: Apparently yes…
I am re-commenting here to @Old&Simple (and it looks like the Old&Simple comment I was replying to is gone. It may have previously been in Part 1 of this subject thread, which is where my comment ended up, after Petros’ notice that comments to the Part 1 thread were closed. Old &Simple had a list of possible reasons for Canadian USPs having a need to renounce or relinquish their US citizenship. I added to the list the following:
Need for “foreign” banking accounts, those essential Canadian (other country) accounts that we use each day for our daily living requirements — groceries, rent, transportation, etc., as well as being able to take advanage of registered Canadian (and other country) retirement and other savings accounts, as every other non-USP Canadian. Witness the “canary in the coalmine” happenings regarding “foreign” bank accounts in Switzerland and some other European countries.
Calgary411, thanks for answering my post on reasons Canadians would bother relinquishing.
That’s basically my reason, too, fear that the exclusion of possible USPs from the righ to a bank account could happen here like it’s already happening in Europe.
I’m still curious about other people’s reasons.
Right, I’m on the next step to renunciation which is filling in the questionnaire the Bern embassy sent me. It’s just background info on name, etc, details on when I lived in the US, last US address and so forth. But I’m wondering what to put for the Social Security Number part. I do have an SSN, but it was issued in my maiden name and as far as I can recall was either never used or only for a summer job I had back in 1967. So do I put the number down with a note about the different name, or do I just say I don’t have one/can’t find it? I’ve never filed US tax forms so still have that to do to become tax compliant after I renounce on the 4th March so the info will need to match up. How important is the SSN for tax purposes if it’s never been used?
Found this scary fact last night reviewing the passport DS-11 form. This is *very* easy to miss on a passport application since the acts and conditions are located in the instructions, and you often don’t read the perjury statement when the consul officer comes to tell you sign the form. Potentially, anyone who has applied for a US passport *after* naturalizing or taking an oath in a foreign state–even if they don’t intend to relinquish” could slip this up.
(If any of the below-mentioned acts or conditions have been performed by or apply to the applicant, the portion whichapplies should be lined out, and a supplementary explanatory statement under oath (or affirmation) by the applicant should be attached and made a part of this application.) I have not, since acquiring United States citizenship, been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state; taken an oath or made an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state; entered or served in the armed forces of a foreign state; accepted or performed the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or political subdivision thereof; made a formalr enunciation of nationality either in the United States, or before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a
foreign state; or been convicted by a court or court martial of competent jurisdiction of committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, or conspiring to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force, the Government of the United States.
Then is says
Oath & Signature
I declare under penalty of perjury that I am a United States citizen (or non-citizen national) and have not, since acquiring United State citizenship (or U.S. nationality), performed any of the acts listed under “Acts or Conditions” on this application form (unless explanatory statement is attached). I
declare under penalty that the statements made on this application are true and correct
Seems almost like entrapment. Maybe Harvey Silverglate should add it to is three felonies a day list: http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx
Hi all,
just learned a few weeks ago about the obligation to file for taxes in the US. I am freaking out!! I just can’t believe it. Like this society. Been doing a lot of reading. But I can’t find a precise description of the process on how to renounce my US citizenship. I don’t know what a CLN is and don’t know much about all the other acronyms.
I am American born to Canadian parents working in the US. Born in 1970 and move to Canada in 1975. Lived in Canada ever since. Don’t own anything in the US. Don;t have a US passport.
Recently, the border agents started to give me trouble for not having a US passport. I didn’t not even know I could have a US passport. So I looked into this. Searched the net and found out I have the obligation of filing taxes, and more.
I do a lot of business travelling. I work for the Canadian Federal Government and they require that I use my Canadian passport when I travel for work (which I do a lot). So in the end, the US passport is not a good option for me.
So because of my work and because of the tax requirements, I think I should renounce my Us citizenship. I do not want to pay a professional every year to file taxes in the US. I don’t want to become a liability for my family not knowing what the IRS might do in the future about my RRSPs and such. But I need to still be able to travel to the US.
I read somewhere that there is a difference between “renouncing” and “relinquishing”. Where can I read more about this? Also, I read a comment that seems to indicate I could claim “loss of Nationality” if I had to take an oath for a job at a foreign government…which I did 13 years ago. Look at section §1481 (4) (B) posted as a comment here “www.vancouverobserver.com/politics/2011/08/19/tax-penalties-us-canadian-citizens-canada-outrageous-mp-don-davies-says”. Has anybody heard about this? Anybody used this?
I live in Ottawa, but I can easily drive to Montreal if the consulate is better there.
Any help would be much appreciated. I don’t want to be ripped off by lawyers/accountants.
Thanks in advance.
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-10428.html
Since you were born a dual citizen of both Canada and US, relinquishment may not an option for you — but review this post to try to determine if anything there might allow a claim of relinquishment for you: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/from-the-archive-did-you-relinquish-here-are-some-proofs-that-the-state-department-uses/.
Also, see descriptions in the Consulate Report Directory http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/.
The Consulate Report Directory will also give you information on renouncing or relinquishing in other Canadian consulates vs. Ottawa. A must read for you.
Hi Vid, you may not even be a US citizen, as you work for the Canadian government. That would mean you have no obligation to travel on a US passport or to file taxes. Please have a look at this post:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/
I should also add that if your job requires that you travel on a Canadian passport, you are a perfect example of the stupidity of the US government in pushing their passport policy. Your situation could turn this into a significant diplomatic incident if the US were ever to refuse you entry on your Canadian passport.
@Vid: Along with the post that Petros pointed you to, here’s another one worth reading: If your expatriation date is before 2004 the rules are different. Basically I don’t think you’ll need to be engaging any lawyers or accountants, because you won’t have any obligation to file Form 8854 (the exit tax form)
Vid Don’t panic. Above all don’t get a US passport. That would a) be illegal and b) negate a claim that you relinquished. You are not an American because you relinquished your US citizenship when you became Canadian . You relinquished again (if it’s possible to do it twice which it isn’t) when you went to work for the feds.
If you feel you must, go to Montreal and get a CLN. Since you are not American, you don’t need to file bupkis with the IRS.
@Vid, RE: Montreal–sure that would be the easy way out. Why not come to Toronto? But I think you should do this in Ottawa. And I have one favor, please take me with you. I want to see the Consular Officer squirm.
@Vid,
Also 349(a)(2) may be applicable:
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years.
Ottawa consulate was problematic — more than problematic — in 2011 and 2012, and we strongly advised against using it, basically if you don’t have a car to get to Toronto, walk. We’ve heard that they cleaned up their act as of January this year and are now observing the law and procedure as elsewhere, as well as no longer requiring one year wait time (not that’d you’d’ve wanted to go there anyway if you knew about them), but are trying to get more information to confirm that. When we do we’ll (delightedly) post an all clear.
CLN is Certificate of Loss of Nationality. If you relinquished your citizenship, it will be backdated to show that your US citizenship ended on the date the relinquishing act occurred.
Good point, Petros, about the stupidity of US passport policy!
Vid, do apply for a relinquishment CLN at whichever embassy is best for you. Then make a copy of it and carry it with you when you travel. You can then show the US border guards that you relinquished years ago and do not need a US passport. The details of your relinquishment will be on file and they can check on their computers if they want to, but the fact is you are no longer American and don’t need their little blue book.
Vid –
You are a slam dunk for relinquishment. Read this case which I know in detail and personally.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/04/24/relinquishment-report-from-hong-kong/
Canadian born and also dual from birth.
Worse come to worst, get yourself an immigration lawyer. File no taxes/FBARs ever and spend nothing for anything on that side. This is informed suggestion, not advice.
Recently, the border agents started to give me trouble for not having a US passport.
Says Vid. One more bit of evidence of increasing border enforcement. Sauve qui peut.
@ Vid,
This Dept of State Manual, 7 FAM 1220, Loss of Nationality and Taking Up a Position in a Foreign Government, should be of interest to you. And you can find links to other DoS manuals regarding expatriation on page 3 of the Consulate Report Directory.
to all,
I can’t believe how great you all are! This community is awesome. Thanks for all the comments. I have a number of friends (and my borther) with dual citizenships. I’ll make sure they come check out this community discussions.
And I will repost to keep you posted on what I end up doing (if anything). It might help somebody else.
Thanks!!
To usxcanada,
Regarding my issues with border agents, it started about 2 years ago. One time, the agent told me I should get “a real passport”. I argued I had a valid passport, but I was told that when I “come home”, I should use the only passport recognized by the US. This was at the Ottawa airport.
Another time, the agent kept asking me about my citizenship until I answered “American”. I must have answered “Canadian” 10 times before the agent said “Sir, you were born in the US, the greatest country of the world, you are AMERICAN!!”. He then asked me the question again. And I answered what he wanted to hear. This too was in Ottawa.
The last time I travelled to the US, the agent said I was being admitted without my US passport for the last time. He said he added a note to my file. This was in Calgary.
So I recently applied for the green passport. The one for official use (the green passport).
I have been travelling for over a decade. I never had any problems before. It is clear to me that the agents have recently been told to put pressure on people to get a US passport.
Vid.
You said you applied for a ‘green passport’ Did you get it? Did they ask if you had worked for a foreign government? they are supposed to.
Vid – Thanks for the useful sharing on your passport situation. You’ve already given back a solid little nugget. If you haven’t come across it, you may be interested in http://usxcanada.wordpress.com/perspectives/#passport. Now I have to take back the slam dunk expectation for your relinquishment. That passport application of yours may wreck the case. But Brock has seen a case or two of “forced” passport acquisition not destroy the possibility. Pretty sure one of those was in Halifax. This is the stuff that is buried at Brock, keeps coming up, and needs to get properly nailed down in an FAQ. I’ll contribute the Q: I want to relinquish. If I’ve acquired a US passport, is relinquishment still possible?.
@USXCANADA and Vid
I just posted this on another thread. If they give you a hard time about renewing a passport, show then the instructions on 2012 8854 saying you don’t legally lose your us citizenship until you turn in a DS-4079, therefore you had every reason to assume you needed one.
Citizenship. You are considered to
have relinquished your U.S. citizenship
on the earliest of the following dates.
1. The date you renounced your
U.S. citizenship before a diplomatic or
consular officer of the United States
(provided that the voluntary
renouncement was later confirmed by
the issuance of a certificate of loss of
nationality).
2. The date you furnished to the
State Department a signed statement of
your voluntary relinquishment of U.S. nationality confirming the performance
of an expatriating act (provided that the
voluntary relinquishment was later
confirmed by the issuance of a
certificate of loss of nationality).
3. The date the State Department
issued a certificate of loss of nationality.
4. The date a U.S. court canceled
your certificate of naturalization.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
@Vid. , Don’t pay attention to BenPloni’s Form 8854 quote. That is tax law. Whether you are a citizen is guided by immigration law. According to immigration law, you haven’t been a citizen for a long time.
The treatment of US border guards of Canadians in the manner you describe is harrassment. That you work for the Canadian government and are therefore entitled to a different passport, a Green passport, means that you are able to find a work around. But the fact of the matter is that they are demonstrating a lack of recognition of your Canadian citizenship and they are doing this to many alleged US persons who are trying to cross the border. This is already become a diplomatic incident and an act of aggression against Canada. I would ask that you make a formal complaint about this as high up in the government as you can reach. You are an excellent example of the asinine US policy but we have to have someone whom our Canadian government will take seriously complain before are leaders will make the necessary diplomatic overtures to make an end of this harassment.
This treatment is affecting many people who are true Canadians and not dual citizens. It is very important to act on this to stop the US reversing the War of 1812.
Also, USX’s comment is also not helpful in this case, evidently because he doesn’t realize that the Green Passport for which you applied is a Canadian government official passport. I think that that itself could be interpreted as a relinquishing act, so that you have nothing to worry about. You are not a US citizen, and your claim to relinquish still remains a slam dunk, unless you apply for a US blue Passport. That could undermine your case. But since you applied for a Canadian Green Passport (brilliant on your part), then you are free and clear of US stupidity. Bravo.
I should add also that these border guards are operating on Canadian soil. So the easiest way to stop this kind of complete nonsense which is ultimately against the sovereignty of Canada, is to shut the damn border stations at Canadian airports down until the United States comes to their fucking senses.