Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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I’m exploring renouncing my US citizenship. I actually feel like I’m maybe up to date on everything? I’ve filed what I think are all the right forms and am up to date. Do I need to consult with a lawyer? An accountant? Do I just…set up an appointment at the embassy (in Toronto)? If I do want to consult with someone to make sure I’ve thought of everything, who would I talk to?
SO. No need for a lawyer. No need for an accountant in order to renounce. You might want an accountant if you choose to file tax returns after you renounce. It is quite a straightforward process. You make an appointment, fill in a few forms, pay $2350 US and you’re done We can help you with most questions. That’s what we’re here for.
@soconfused
If you are compliant with US tax filing and plan to exit cleanly with filing 8854 post renunciation etc then you should also consider if your net worth is over $2,000,000 which would put you in the ‘covered ‘ label’ which would mean you would have to pay a further 15% on any unrealized gains above aprox $699,000 that you may have made. Your net worth is assessed the day before you renounce. If you are in this situation then an accountant/ lawyer could advise you how to divide or gift assets to a spouse of family member before renouncing to lower your net worth or of course you can do this yourself.
“Do I just…set up an appointment at the embassy?
Yes. Very simple, very easy.
Gather your documents and forms, turn up on the day, pay, go through the interview, swear the oath, and you’re finished with the renouncing.
Wait for the CLN to arrive.
Next tax day, file your last tax return, together with the expatriation form, and then you’re finished with the IRS.
If you haven’t been filing US tax returns, you can renounce and decide not to enter the US tax system. That’s what I did. I have no US assets and I’m a financial minnow.
“If you haven’t been filing US tax returns, you can renounce and decide not to enter the US tax system.”
True. If there’s no tax to pay, there’s no need to file. However, the poster says:
“I’ve filed what I think are all the right forms and am up to date.”
In that situation, it’s reasonable (and tidy 🙂 ) to continue filing for the last part-year of citizenship and the first part-year of NRA status, and file the expatriation form to finish it off.
SOconfused: I renounced last Dec. in Quebec, completing the DOS process without a lawyer or accountant. If you are up to date with the tax filings, the DOS process is easy. Then, there is an optional second process for the IRS exit filing. Should you do that, an accountant can be helpful, but many Brocker renunciants filed their exit return themselves. (A clue might be whether you do your own taxes.) I set up checklists for myself for every step of the two processes.)
For the IRS exit process, I found an accountant helpful but not essential. There is more on this site about how to complete the exit filing than that particular accountant knew!
Hi there,
I am beginning the process of completing ds4079. However, I have just accepted a uk government job at a low level admin level in a foreign country. At the time of writing I don’t have a contract and dont have a start date. I didnt have to take an oath or anything to take up the government job. Can I still renounce or do I just have to relinquish? I’m freaking out over this.
Taking up the government job does not mean that you’ve relinquished, you’ll still renounce.
@ Purpleflower,
You can do either.
You can relinquish on the basis of taking government employment under s. 349(a)(4)(A):
No oath is required. It does not matter if it is low level, as long as it is your intention to relinquish your US citizenship by taking the job. You will need proof, such as your contract and start date, to obtain a CLN based on this act.
You can always renounce at any time, regardless of if you have performed a “potentially relinquishing act” such as government employment. That’s because performing such an act does not automatically cause citizenship loss. If the person does not have the intent to relinquish the citizenship by performing the act, the US citizenship remains. So, the renunciation option is always open.
If relinquishing is important to you, then go for it. But if it really doesn’t matter, I’d go for renunciation. Less paperwork, the 4079 really doesn’t matter in a renunciation; and, as the relinquishing act (the renunciation oath) is clearly done intentionally and the consul witnesses it, it precludes any grey area of intent. Relinquishing usually isn’t a problem, but renunciation is really straightforward.
thanks bird person and pacifica777.
how do i go about renouncing if I first have to complete ds 4079 and send it to my local embassy? ds 4079 asks about foreign government jobs and I currently don’t have a contract or start date.
@ Purpleflower,
The question is in past tense, so as of today I’d tick “no.”If that or anything changes between the date you send it in and the date of your renunciation appointment, you could send in an amendment.
Update: I just remembered you said you’d accepted the position. So, that’s a “yes” in 11(a). In 11(b) and (c), where they ask about dates and other stuff, I’d put I accepted but don’t have a start date yet.
Pacifica777 – ok.
Will I be asked to relinquish only because of taking up a low level admin job? or can I ask to renounce?
Also – with re to passport use I flew out on my American one and back on my foreign passport – will this be an issue if I they will only allow me to relinquish?
I am due to travel soon to the states – can I put the forms in before or no?
@ Purpleflower,
A US citizen can always renounce. ATaking government employment is a “potentially” relinquishing act. It’s not an automatically relinquishing act. It becomes a relinquishing act if the person who performs it chooses it to be one. Otherwise, nothing changes.
The State Department’s administrative presumption is that when a person does a potentially relinquishing act, such as non-policy-level government job, that their intention is to *keep* their US citizenship. It’s only cause for relinquishment if the person wants it to be. So, they won’t force you to relinquish based on govt work if you don’t want to. They probably won’t bat an eye, as it’s fairly common for someone to perform a potentially relinquishing act and keep their US citizenship; but decide at a later date they don’t want the citizenship anymore, so they renounce.
Submitting the forms doesn’t change anything. It’s just the preliminary stage of the process, so submitting the forms doesn’t impact on passports and travelling.
purpleflower. You are tying yourself in knots unnecessarily.
Renouncing is one of several ways to relinquish (give up) US citizenship. In your case it is the easier way. The cost is the same; you still need to go to the consulate; the paperwork is slightly less.and the outcome more certain.
It matters not a whit when you accepted or start your new job. It matters not which passport you used or when. It is your absolute right to renounce provided only that you understand the consequences and are not being coerced.
Don’t fret about DS4079. It is a most confusing form. Its original purpose was for those trying to keep their US citizenship after doing something naughty like becoming a citizen of another country.
DS now uses it for the opposite purpose-to determine if that naughty act was sufficient or deliberate. Hence the confusion.
Forget about DS4079. It’s of no consequence when you go to renounce . Good luck.
I need a bit of help completing the forms – is this something someone could advise on?
I need help with ds4079
12 c, d and e –
c. do i just put what family ties I have to the country?
d. do I vote? I have only voted once for the eu ref in 2016.
e. what other ties do I have to the country? I don’t know what else to put apart from family and job.
14. what passport do you use when travelling to and from US ? can I put American on arrival and foreign passport on departure? or no?
16. have you renounced in front of a US consulate? do I leave this blank?
17. describe in detail in which you performed these actions? what do I put for this section. I’m confused by it.
18a & b – I’m confused by this section and don’t know what to put.- guidance would be appreciated.
19. I’m confused by this section and don’t know what to put – guidance would be appreciated.
20 & 21- do i complete section 21 only.
am i ok to scan these documents across? or must they be posted?
thanks in advance.
any help would be appreciated- thanks
purpleflower. Please reread our comments and stop stressing.
DS4079 is not relevant for renouncing. I have a copy from 1980. At that time, State would refuse to renew US passports for some citizens who had voluntarily become citizens of other countries. That purpose is now obsolete and they use DS4079 to approve (or not) a relinquishing act.
Since you are going to RENOUNCE, DS4079 has no meaning. Many consulates don’t require it.
If you are required to send it in, don’t fuss, keep it simple. The questions are not trick questions.
12c- yes- what family do you have in your new country
12d-answer Yes-once
12e-answer I have a job and a place to live
!4 Yes that is a good answer.
16- No
17. No need to elaborate whatsoever.
18a-,b I would put “not applicable”
19- “not applicable” Remember this form was used to deny passport renewals 40 years ago and to approve or not requests for prior relinquishment. Neither apply in your case. Don’t fuss.
20 and 21 Don’t sign If asked to do so, you would do it in front of a voce consul.
In Canada , we send everything as an email attachment. I don’t know where you are.
thanks Portland – it’s been a very stressful few months. Apologies for all the questions and thanks for taking the time out to respond.
just one point on question 14 – what passport do you use when travelling to and from US ? – do i write on arrrival american and foreign passport on departure ?? stressed over this part of the form.
do I contact my local embassy asking for an appointment slot and then they’ll send the forms over?
the embassy near me has ds 4079 listed under renouncing US citizenship which is why I’m slightly worried and concerned.
It’s been a very stressful few months.
Contact the embassy and ask for an appointment to renounce. They will provide instructions. It’s really all quite straightforward. As I said, it doesn’t make any difference what you answer on DS4079. It’s not relevant because you are going to renounce. By all means answer US passport when traveling to the US and other passport when leaving. It makes no difference what you answer. Knowing what to expect will make it a lot less stressful for you.
Hi
Can you recommend a reasonable cost consultant to review my case and reduce the risk for renounce us citizenship?
thanks!
LuisL
There is no risk when renouncing US citizenship. It is your right and cannot be refused unless they think you are being coerced or you do not have the mental capacity to understand your actions. Being US tax compliant does not affect your right to renounce
If you decide to send in the relevant post renunciation tax forms and you are concerned that you may be a ‘ covered ‘ expatriate by having over $2,000,000 in assets there are ways to reduce your net worth by gifting to a spouse or family member pre renunciation.
Others have just renounced and ignored these tax forms .
Me! I renounced without filing a single tax return.
@LuisL
Here is our guide to renouncing or relinquishing US citizenship. Read it carefully as we are all in different situations when making our decisions. You can then ask questions relevant to your situation here on Brock.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/how-to-renouncerelinquish/
It would help if we had some idea where you are.
You don’t need a consultant. There are no risks. It’s perfectly straightforward