Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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@ Phyllis Henderson,
Re:
Definitely interesting! And will be interesting to read the final decision. I’ve started a sub-topic thread for this and transferred the comments on it to that new thread. Thanks!
purpleflower – have you seen the note about DS-4079 in the Foreign Affairs Manual?
“While Form DS-4079, Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship, is not standard or typically necessary for renunciation cases, where there is a question about intent it may prove useful. Further, the DS-4079 may serve as a helpful tool for information gathering in appropriate cases regarding, for example, ties to the United States and the host country, or possible earlier commission of an expatriating act. In short, consular officers should not seek completion and signature of the DS-4079 in renunciation cases as a matter of routine but only if pertinent as described above.”
https://fam.state.gov/fam/07fam/07fam1260.html
I suggest you email the Embassy, quoting the note, and ask them why DS-4079 is asked for, given that the note says it’s not typically necessary for renunciation. Reasonable question.
Thanks ,I’ll have a think over it.
I just thought that there was a consensus that as an American you had to arrive and depart on one passport or will it not matter for renunciation?
So sorry for all the questions guys ~ you’ve been very helpful!
The whole passport thing does not matter for renunciation. The embassy won’t care. Don’t worry about it.
@ Purpleflower,
Whichever passport you used doesn’t impact on if you can renounce or not. I’m not clear, is this embassy asking you for a 4079 or not.
If they don’t want 4079, great, one less task to do.
If they want 4079, just write the truth. The passport won’t impact on it.
General rule for 4079 (or pretty much any form anywhere), keep answers short. The consular officer reads the 4079 before meeting with the person, so if s/he wants further clarification of something, they’ll ask at your meeting. Good news, they almost never do. These meetings are usually very short and consist mainly of signing papers and pushing them back and forth over the counter. It’s good to make sure you’ve covered all bases with renouncing so it will go smoothly, but don’t worry about this.
@ Purpleflower,
BTW, check out the Consulate Report Directory, if you haven’t yet. We have a couple hundred pages of people’s reports of their experiences at CLN meetings, arranged by consulate location. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
“I just thought that there was a consensus that as an American you had to arrive and depart on one passport or will it not matter for renunciation?”
Not at all. The purpose of the question is to find out whether a person has been “acting like an American” (making use of US citizen privileges such as the US passport) while claiming to have relinquished. That’s all. Completely irrelevant for a person who’s renouncing.
Great thanks Pacifica 777 that’s what I was looking for!
From my experience at the London embassy, they’re not trying to trip you up or make anything difficult. Quite the opposite. The staff who dealt with me acted like they realised that what I was doing was difficult, and they were very kind as well as professional about it.
Pacifica 777 ~yes the forms required to download on the site is 4079 only listed under renunciation section
Too bad, that’s a bit of a pain. Just keep your answers short (I gave them a mouthful, though, on the “ties to your country of residence” questions 🙂 ), and if you have any questions, just ask here. And don’t worry too much about it — 4079 really only matters when getting a CLN for a prior relinquishing act, as then you’re using it to prove your point.
“Purpleflower
The 4079 is used to determine if you have already lost your US citizenship when you became British. If this was your intention (as it is with some) then you have to state that you have not used your US passport at all since you became British.
You have used your US passport therefore you will be later presented with form 4081 to formally renounce by taking an oath. Your use of a US passport is not relevant for a renunciation.
The State dept do state that all US persons should use their US passport to enter and leave the US but they cannot enforce this. Many of us traveled in on a US passport and out on another. Do not worry about it, it will not affect your renunciation.
Business Insider says:
“Before the first appointment, you’ll need to fill out and sign the DS-4079 questionnaire, which is used to request the loss of US citizenship
Diplomatic officials use the first interview to ensure that you aren’t renouncing your citizenship under duress.
I reckon that in the minds of the London officials (and maybe elsewhere), when they send you instructions and you send back your documents plus DS-4079, that constitutes a “first interview,” conducted by email (which USCIS says is now permitted).
Then at the “second interview” you turn up in person in order to get taken through the other forms and swear the oath.
thanks so much Pacifica777, phyillis, Heidi and birdperson for the comments. I was thinking of renoncing in dublin but it requires an address in ireland to be provided when completing the forms. looking at other options.
A couple more options worth considering:
1. Keep your $2350 and your US citizenship. There are a lot of advantages. Many many people all over the world are putting up with FATCA and/or CRS reporting, for the convenience and usefulness of cross-border accounts.
2. Pay an adviser to help you fill out the renunciation forms. There are plenty in the UK who would be extremely happy to take your money.
Or just zip through the 4079 holding your nose and giving short answers to all the questions, as suggested by Pacifica777.
Good luck.
Am i ok to travel before i renounce ? it’ll not be for while yet
If you’ve already been using your US passport, then you might as well continue to use it for travel. You will have to renounce rather than apply for a relinquishment at any rate, as by using a US passport you’ll be deemed to have been acting as a US citizen.
Until you renounce, you’re still a US citizen, and therefore have the right to use your US passport.
sorry another question re: the filing of taxes. can i still renounce if they’ve been filed?
You can renounce if you’ve filed. You can renounce if you haven’t filed. Your right to renounce has nothing to do with whether or not you’ve filed US tax returns.
@phyllisH
I have kept my US (cross border) accounts. I have informed them that I have renounced and I use a non US address. The only problem seems to be with US credit cards, but if you have a relative’s address to use it isn’t a problem.
If you can afford the renunciation fee and have no intention of living there again then renunciation is financial freedom . As a renunciant you can of course visit the US for up to 120 days/ year (rolling average over 3 years ).
pf. you seem to be hesitant. It helps to be sure and happy that giving up US citizenship is right for you.
If it is, there is nothing that can legally prevent you from doing so. It just takes a little effort and time. No need to pay a lawyer or accountant
“I have kept my US (cross border) accounts. ”
Sorry for not being clearer. I was referring to residence-country investment accounts which when owned by a US citizen can be used for cross-border (res. country / US) activity. The type of account that’s subject to FATCA reporting.
hi again. just a query- in 2014 i visited mexico with my american passport. i was coming back to the states. i dont think the passport was stamped or anything. will this be an issue for renuncation? its an old passport btw.
I wasn’t asked anything about passports, entering or leaving the USA, at my renunciation visit. The issue isn’t raised. And think about it, would an Embassy really have the time or desire to check into your travel history?
@purpleflower
Forget about passport use, try to stop worrying, it is not relevant for a renunciation. You will be surprised how simple the process is.