Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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Maybe they’ve changed how they handle renunciations. I wouldn’t worry about it, if I were you. Unless they’ve changed anything else since August (when I applied for my appointment to renounce), you fill in the form and email it to them. They then give you a date and time for your appointment. If they want any more forms, I assume they’ll tell you.
a bit worrying that they’ve changed it. 4081 etc isn’t mentioned at all. I’ve checked a few other places near me and they have different procedures again- asking to fill out a cln ahead of the appointment.
has anyone else found this new change??
Why is it worrying? From all accounts, embassies are having to process lots of renunciations. Maybe they’re just trying to ease the paperwork burdens for themselves.
I expect they’ll either send you the other forms after you’ve sent them your documents; or they’ll ask you to fill them in and sign them when you keep the appointment.
ah right yes that would make sense. it’s just an anxious time that they’ve changed it and the forms on here etc are very helpful and I was planning to use them as a reference point.
another quick question. can you renounce anywhere? or does it have to be the place you live? I was looking at other places near me and it asked for an address of the place I was thinking of renouncing – but I don’t live there and so wouldnt be able to provide an address of that place.
You can renounce in any US Embassy. Some people have flown to a different country if the appointments are more convenient and made a bit of a mini holiday out of it.
Thanks for the comments. I’m worried that if 4079 is required for renoucation as it’s the only form available that I can see where it asks about passport usage, I won’t be able to renounce as they’ll have a record of me entering but not leaving as I left on my passport of the other country – Sorry for all the questions.
I ALWAYS entered the USA on my US passport and ALWAYS left the USA on my UK passport. Every single time, over multiple visits over ten years. It’s not a problem, and it wouldn’t affect your right to renounce anyway.
@ Purpleflower,
Re: “I’m worried that if 4079 is required for renoucation as it’s the only form available that I can see where it asks about passport usage . . .”
The 4079 isn’t required for renunciation. Embassies/consulates are not forbidden from using it, so a few do. But most – especially the high-volume renunciation locations – don’t. Procedures and documents can vary a bit from place to place, and we’ve noticed that they change over time even at the same location. So, if the location you’ll be using hasn’t asked for it in its recent instructions, that’s okay (and less work 🙂 ). And, as BirdPerson mentioned, passport use doesn’t have any effect on the ability to renounce.
7 FAM 1264(b)(5): Renunciation of US Citizenship
By completing the 4079 form you’re just asking for a determination as to whether you might have already lost your US citizenship.
It’s you that’s asking for the determination, and it’s you that’s providing the information to make it possible for the determination to be made.
The only possible consequence of filling in the form is to determine whether you are or are not a US citizen.
If it’s determined on the basis of the information you’ve provided )plus the documentation you’ve provided), that you are indeed a US citizen, it’s ok for them to administer the oath and issue the CLN.
If it’s determined that you already lost your US citizenship (by committing a relinquishing act and never acting like a US citizen again), it’s ok for them to issue the CLN without administering the oath.
Either way, you get the CLN. And it can’t come back to bite them because by filling in the form you’ve asked them to decide whether you need to take the oath. You can’t come back later and claim the oath was invalid and you’re still a citizen.
They’re just covering their backs.
Your passport usage has nothing to do with your ability to renounce. It is your right to renounce at any embassy or consulate.
4 things are required. 1. appear in person, 2). demonstrate you aren’t stateless 3). Show you understand the consequences and aren’t being coerced and 4) pay $2350. That’s all.
@purpleflower
I was someone who renounced in a country other than where I lived, as at that time my resident country had a backlog of people waiting to renounce.
Officially you are allowed to renounce at any Consulate but I believe some have decided to limit renunciations to residents of their country only.
Phyllis’s explanation is spot on, the 4079 is only to
determine if you have already lost your US citizenship by committing an expatriation act in the past and by not acting as an American citizen since. You will be presented with 4081 after this determination.
I also traveled in on my US passport and out on my non US passport. No problem.
Renunciation is a human right, nothing can prevent it unless they think you have been coerced or you are not mentally able to understand the consequences.
DS 4079 is so confusing it should have been scrapped years ago. You need to understand its original use. Some people thought they had lost their US citizenship or were told they had lost it. But they wanted to keep it so 4079 was introduced to determine if they were still citizens or not.
Later on, a number of people began showing up claiming they had previously lost their citizenship and didn’t want it. They wanted a CLN. Unfortunately state decided to use the same form for completely opposite purposes. Hence the confusion. 4079 is irrelevant for those who wish to renounce. Some embassies haven’t figured that out yet.
The purpose of the form is simply to establish which relinquishing act is the legal basis for the loss of citizenship – the oath, or one of the other acts defined by statute. Only a US citizen can swear a valid oath of renunciation.
@purpleflower
I do not know where you are situated, but if you wish to avoid the DS 4079, ( although there isn’t any real reason to) then I know Amsterdam and Luxembourg consulates do not use it, and there are others .
Not relevant to purpleflower’s question, but interesting: it turns out there has been a recent case in which (if I understand correctly), a Swiss citizen who was born in the US got extradited to the US – on a US passport which was obtained in his name without his consent, not by him but by the US – solely so that they could take him back to the US and imprison him in America.
Subsequently the prisoner wrote to the Swiss Embassy to apply for a CLN on the basis that when he naturalised he intended to lose US citizenship, and believed that he had lost citizenship, and had never acted as an American since naturalising. Now he wanted a CLN, so that he would become deportable and thus be able to leave America. But the Embassy refused – on the grounds that he couldn’t apply for a CLN while he was in America. Catch-22.
But maybe not. Looks like he might eventually get his CLN, as the court has rejected the Embassy’s motion to dismiss.
US renunciation law is a mess.
https://www.courtlistener.com/pdf/2018/04/16/farrell_v._tillerson.pdf
It hasn’t been finally settled yet
thanks for all the comments guys- it’s reassured me a bit. I’ve noticed that in london on the renouncation section only d’s 4079 is listed. I was bit concerned as I understand it d’s 4079 isn’t strictly required for renouncation and was wandering why it was listed. for passport usage can I put just put American where it asks about passport usage?
has anyone renounced in Amsterdam or dublin?is there an updated consulate review booklet about experiences?
When I filled out the 4079, I stated that I only used the US passport to enter the USA, and that I used my UK passport for everything else.
Just remember, the 4079 will be destroyed at the appointment. You’ll have to renounce, which means signing a different form. So I wouldn’t worry over it too much.
@ purpleflower
I believe Iota , a past contributor to Brock renounced in Amsterdam, no 4079 and one appointment but you really have nothing to fear from London, reports say they are friendly , professional and efficient.
When I renounced in September last year, the embassy staff in London were very kind to me. They even expedited my CLN so I had it within two weeks (I had a trip to the USA planned in October and my US passport had expired, so I needed to be able to travel on my UK passport).
The only thing I didn’t like is that the vice counsel said I wouldn’t be able to obtain an ESTA but would have to apply for a visa. However, two days later I applied on line for an ESTA, and it was approved.
@birdperson – what about leaving the US? your UK passport?
thanks for all the comments guys. it just seems that they’ve changed the forms required where I am.
is there a section on this site where you can ask for guidance for completing the forms?
Yes, I always left the USA on my UK passport. Every single time.
I used this bit of the site to ask questions when I was filling out my forms.
@purpleflower
Yes, I always entered the US on my US passport and used my other passport to enter my home country. It really does not matter what you put. You are not claiming a backdated relinquishment.
There is no guide to answering the forms on this site as we all come from different situations but others have just asked questions here when the need exists and someone will help. Really it is not difficult, they are not out to trick you.
purpleflower – using a US passport to enter, and your other passport to leave, is not a problem. If anything, it shows you were a dual citizen and considered yourself a dual citizen.