Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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@purpleflower
You cannot claim a past relinquishment if you have used your US passport since taking another citizenship. You can however renounce quite simply and at the same cost. Relinquishment used to be free but now it’s the same cost as renunciation. A past Relinquishment can only be claimed if you have done nothing American (like use of passport or voting or filing US taxes) since getting your other citizenship. Your passport use is no problem in renunciation. Form 4079 is confusing and not officially needed in renunciation. So you can just renounce and rejoice.
@ Purpleflower,
Passport use presents a problem as it’s considered by DoS to be a very strong indicator that the person themself believes s/he is a US citizen. However, some people who have used a US passport, or applied for their first US passport after their relinquishing act, due to bullying or misinformation/misunderstanding, have received CLNs based on their relinquishing act, but some haven’t.
DoS seem to have gotten stricter on the passport factor in recent years (albeit, we have very few reports to base this perception on). It isn’t, and never was, a slam dunk – even in some, IIRC all, of the cases which went smoothly, there was consultation between the consulate and Washington (either at the time of their consulate meeting or during the weeks prior to it) before the person proceeded with their application.
At any rate, we got reports from the following people who used/renewed/got a passport after their relinquishing act.
2012 Halifax
Baird
Consulate Report Directory
Got passport because border agent told him he had to.
CLN received 2 months
2012 Vancouver
David: Submitted on 2012/12/20 at 10:41 pm
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/comment-page-32/#comment-118836
Used passport to enter US, thought he had to.
CLN received 3 months
2013 Jerusalem
BenPloni
Consulate Report Directory
Renewed/used passport.
After lengthy back and forth (a couple of months) between person, consulate and DC, person was told could only renounce.
Renounced
2013 Consulate in Western Hemisphere, but not in Canada.
Anonymous
Had been given a very hard time in secondary entering the US on non-US passport, so got a US passport.
CLN received 3 months
2013 Toronto
AtticusInCanada: Submitted on 2013/09/26 at 10:48 pm
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/comment-page-10/#comment-554746
Used passport.
CLN received 13 months
2014 Toronto
Anonymous
Used passport until it expired. Did not renew.
Was told could only renounce.
Became self-documented relinquisher
2014 Vancouver.
BC_Doc Submitted on 2014/05/16 at 6:39 pm
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-23/#comment-1769004
Renewed (used?) passport.
Was told could only renounce.
Became self-documented relinquisher
2014 Vancouver
Ghost66 Submitted on 2014/04/20 at 11:56 pm
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-22/#comment-1501567
Used passport.
Was told could only renounce
Renounced
2014 Amsterdam
Murdo Douglas: Submitted on 2014/12/03
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/10/27/cheryls-claim-for-relinquishment-based-on-ina-1952-350-the-case-of-a-dual-citizen-at-birth/comment-page-8/#comment-4614351
Renewed/used passport.
Relinquishment claim sent by embassy to DC but rejected 2 months
2014 Melbourne
Anonymous
Renewed/used passport.
Reliinquishment claim sent by embassy to DC but rejected 14 months
Renounced
2019 London
BirdPerson
Renewed/used passport.
Told could only renounce.
Renounced
thanks for this- can I still renounce based on having lost my citizenship by acquiring another one? and can I still visit this year as planned and renounce/ relinquish later this year?
@ purple flower
You can renounce based on nothing other than the fact that it is your human right. The fact that you have another citizenship makes this possible.
Purple flower
I was one of those forced into obtaining new US passport. I was born in the USA, took on British citizenship in 1993, and thereafter travelled on my British passport. I was caught using British passport the second time I entered the USA, and I was told that I MUST obtain a new US passport and use that to enter the USA. Because I did so, the US Embassy in London told me that I obviously had decided to be a US citizen, so I had to renounce. They would not accept a relinquishment. At the end of the day, it makes little difference. I still had to pay the same fee, and I won’t be filing any US tax returns.
You can continue to travel on your US passport as long as you are still a US citizen. After you’ve renounced, you would have to enter the US under your other passport. Remember that, once you’ve renounced, you have NO right of entry to the USA. You will be judged as any other person of your nationality. I entered the US on my British passport a month after renouncing, and had no problems obtaining an ESTA and no problems at the border.
@purpleflower
Yes, you can still visit. After renunciation you will need to acquire an ESTA, or Visa or if in Canada whatever their arrangement .You will be permitted to stay for a max of 120 days (rolling average over 3 yrs)
Hi Purpleflower,
Our comments posted at the same time. So, my thoughts on your first question, about relinquishing based on having acquired another citizenship, are in my comment above.
And your second question: “can I still visit this year as planned and renounce/ relinquish later this year?
A visit doesn’t impact on either an upcoming relinquishment or an upcoming application for a CLN based on a prior relinquishing act.
In sum:
Use of US passport if planning to renounce does not create a problem.
Use of US passport after a relinquishing act if planning to apply for a CLN based on that act creates a problem.
A visit does not create a problem in either scenario.
@ BirdPerson,
I just realised that I never put your consulate report into the directory. Sorry about that. And thanks again for it! It’ll be in the directory in the next day or so.
I never checked! Thanks for letting me know.
Hi Pacifica777,
just so I understand correctly- its all very confusing. Can I apply for renouncation only but not relinquish based on having another citizenship or no since I’ve used my US passport since then?
also – could I go to the embassy near me to informally discuss?
is there a particular time to renounce or can it be done throughout the year?
@purpleflower
You can only renounce as you have used your US passport after obtaining your other citizenship.
Renunciation can be done throughout the year. You should email your nearest Embassy or Consulate for an appointment. They will let you know the procedure and documents required.
@purpleflower
PS. To understand difference between Renunciation and Relinquishment ….
To claim a backdated relinquishment one has to prove that one intended to lose US citizenship when one became a citizen of another country. This means one would no longer act asa US person, ie, use a US passport, vote in US elections or file US taxes.
However a renunciation can be done at any time as long as one has another citizenship as the US resists one becoming stateless.
Purple Flower. I fear some of the answers are muddying the water,
I’ll keep it as simple as I can
a). You cannot claim prior relinquishment based on obtaining a different citizenship.
b). You can relinquish American citizenship at any time by appearing in front of a consular official and stating in writing that you wish to renounce.
The only requirements are that you already have another citizenship ( which you have), that you are not being coerced , and that you pay US$2350.
The cost is the same. Then we enter into a discussion about whether or not you need to file tax forms. The two are not related. You do not need to be tax compliant before renouncing. You do not need to be tax compliant after renouncing unless you choose to be. You do not need a lawyer at any stage.
So tax filing is a discussion for another day.
After renouncing, you have the same right to travel as does any other citizen of your country of residence.
thanks for all your comments. just one more question for my clarification- when I checked in to depart US I used my country of residence passport and showed this to airline staff and then used my American passport to show to security staff. on the form where it asks about which passport do you use to depart US – what passport do I put? Thanks for the comments.
@purpleflower
Just put your US passport to keep them happy, but it really doesn’t matter as you will be renouncing and not trying to claim a backdated relinquishment.
Most consulates do not require form 4079 (which asks about passport stuff ) to be filled in for a simple renunciation, it’s usually used for people trying to claim relinquishments but some Consulates continue to use it for both. Don’t worry, a renunciation is quite straight forward and this form will be disregarded .
@purpleflower
I filled out the 4079 as I had hoped to argue for a backdated relinquishment. When the London Embassy refused to accept this (because I’d used a US passport), the 4079 was destroyed and a different form was prepared for my renouncement.
PS purpleflower
I say “ keep them happy” as an American is required to travel to and exit from the US on their US passport, unless of course one considered that one had intended to relinquish their US citizenship when taking up another, hence the questions on the 4079 to determine if this was the intention.
yes that’s my concern that there’ll be no record of me leaving. even though I show ed security etc my US passport just not the airline
After I was forced to obtain a US passport, I travelled into the US on that passport, but out on my UK passport. Didn’t cause me any problems and it didn’t have any bearing on my renunciation. I doubt they have the time, or the desire, to try to check into this.
@purpleflower
I did the same as you and BP, no problem. Don’t think too deeply into this. As we said, the 4079 bears no relevance to a renunciation. The form will be disregarded for a renunciation and only helps if one wants to claim a backdated relinquishment (by stating one never used a US passport since obtaining a second citizenship ).
Does renouncing/relinquishing affect social security payments?
@Denise
Not at all. If you have 10 yrs (40 quarters) then you will receive US SS payments. They can be sent to a bank in your country of residence converted to your national currency.
I renounced 7 yrs ago and receive my full SS benefits.
Ypu can also receive medicare if you chose to make the monthly payments but of course treatment can only be received while you are visiting the US.
PS Denise
https://www.ssa.gov/international/payments_outsideUS.html
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p519.pdf
Depending on your citizenship and your resident country there may be a tax witholding, its usually 30% or 0%. Depending on your countries tax treaty. You should be able to claim a tax credit for any w from your resident country.
@Denise
Less complex SS link
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
Thank you. I am already receiving SS but I plan on returning home to the UK this year. I hope they will pay into my TransferWise Borderless account since I don’t have an account back home.