Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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Yesterday, I learned about Oleg Tinkov, a Russian and former US citizen, whom the US government is prosecuting for underreporting his net wealth on Form 8854. In this case, Tinkov’s billionaire status and Russian nationality probably made him a target whereby the US government is trying to frighten people into filing Form 8854 etc.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/founder-russian-bank-charged-tax-fraud
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1256141/download
My take is that the average person who renounces and simply ignores the Form 8854 and other requirements has little to fear. Similarly, if one is a citizen of another country and compliant with the local tax laws then the risk is close to zero. Nonetheless, this case is certainly disconcerting. I can think of no other example of the US government persecuting someone for Form 8854 failures. As an aside, I wonder why people like Tinkov or Assange choose to base themselves in the UK, which is too cosy with the US.
All best are off when it comes to the very rich or politically prominent. Paul Manafort was busted for FATCA/FBAR offenses, if I recall.
I wonder if the IRS would even have figured out Tinkov left if he had simply skipped Form 8854.
The Tinkov case makes it abundantly clear that the US government will use its tax laws and absurd jurisdiction notion to persecute people outside the country. I think renouncing is the right choice for me, but I understand why many people just ignore everything if they do not intend to return to the US and have no assets there.
Asked about renouncing in Germany, to take advantage of some upcoming travel. Here’s the auto-reply:
At this time, renunciations are on hold per Department of State policy. Once we are permitted to begin processing renunciations, we will email you to schedule an appointment.
Report from a Canadian on another forum who put in their renunciation request around the beginning of February 2020, later switched to the consulate with the shortest wait time (because they’d need to travel anyway) and managed to renounce in late summer 2021. So it’s happening in Canada, albeit slowly.
Do you know which consulate?
I asked but they did not say which city, only the one with the shortest wait list. Presumably that means the embassy is willing to tell you which city has the shortest waiting list, or put you on it.
Meanwhile, Frankfurt just confirmed that there are no renunciation appointments offered in Germany at this time.
So, good news – a renunciation appointment in the new year.
And now a question. The list of documents you are requested to bring includes a Social Security card “if you have one”. It’s my understanding that you are not required to produce a Social Security Number in order to renounce. I would prefer not to. I don’t want to bork my renunciation by kicking up a stink about this, but I’d also like politely quote chapter and verse to tell them that they’re wrong. Can anyone point me to the appropriate bit of the regulations so that I can tell them they don’t need to know, given that I wish to have conveniently lost the card and forgotten the number. (Telling them that you’ve forgotten the number is basically admitting that you’ve not been filing tax returns, not that it matters.)
@RH
A bit surprised that this question would come from you. Bear in mind that that ss number could be handy when one finally applies for a ss pension. I don’t see the point of not mentionning or presenting it ,since it has no bearing in the renunciation process. If you are going to live in Europe and have renounced ,what does it matter what your US tax status is? Am I missing something here?
@RR
I’m mostly curious as to why they want it when we know it’s not required. I know it ultimately doesn’t matter because I’m not going to file anything, but I’d prefer that the number not be passed on to the IRS after renouncing, only my name. Since I barely worked a year in the US I won’t qualify for Social Security, even after adding years worked in Canada under the totalization agreement.
The only reason for the ssn when renouncing should be for the tax compliance part if you so chose to do this mission…
If one has no loose ends ( relatives, no intent to return,etc) , whatever you do in that regard will make nada difference . Also,did some due diligence and consulted, and it never ceases to amaze that there is never ever a mention of consequences for expats if they don’t fill,don’t pay exit taxes,etc. It’s as if the the IRS will come to your door and pounce on you . It’s old but still surprising.
@ Ron,
The SSN is not on the CLN. That’s the only document IRS gets a copy of. I assume IRS could easily look up one’s SSN as date and place of birth are on the CLN, but they don’t seem to seem to be doing anything with the CLNs apart from publishing that quarterly list.
@Pacifica
I’m aware that an SSN isn’t required for renunciation, and that it’s not on the CLN itself, so I’m wondering why they bother asking for it. Particularly given that they’ll let you proceed without an SSN in the event that you don’t have one.
Though it doesn’t mean much in the end, I’d prefer not to give them the number. Probably it’s easier to say “I must have had one once but I have no idea where it is now” than get into an extended argument about the legality of their requirement and my reasons for not wanting to disclose the number.
@ Ron,
The SSN request is in a sample letter in the Foreign Affairs Manual that embassies can send to people enquiring about renunciation (7FAM1269). Although the actual letter sent varies some amongst embassies, they seem to mainly use the bulk of the sample. There was no sample letter in the FAM until around 5 years ago, so the question wasn’t popping up much before then. But as it’s not on the CLN nor on any of the official DOS-HQ questionnaires/forms, I don’t see the point of it being on the sample letter in the first place.
Thanks Pacifica. I’ll review the FAM. I need to decide how much fuss and/or lying I want to deal with while renouncing. They should not be asking for the SSN. Giving it to them likely won’t change my life one bit (not planning on filing anything before or after renouncing).
Hello,
I requested an appointment to renounce in March 2020 @ Ottawa. Still no new from the embassy on dates. Anyone else in Ottawa waiting as long as me?
@Ron, to ask for a location with the shortest wait time, is that just the CLNA email or is there another ‘person’ to whom I should reach out? I hate this radio silence and almost-2-year wait time.
Sounds like a perfect opportunity to have a dyslectic moment.
@Cody
I’m not sure the answer there, as I didn’t ask for another location. I only know the CLNA e-mail address. I was 14 months from application to appointment, in Calgary.
@Cody,
Have you sent a follow-up email recently? If so, and you received no reply, you could contact Dept of State HQ. They’ve been very helpful when someone’s not got replies or their file has fallen through the cracks.
AFAIK, they have got through the original backlog from when they shut down in Canada in March 2020, and have this year been setting appointments for people who applied since the shutdown, so if you’re a March 2020 application, you should have been amongst the first to hear once they started with the applications that came in during the shutdown.
The office at DOS HQ that handles Canada-based CLN matters is Western Hemisphere Division, American Citizens Services, Brad Norton, Division Chief, 202-485-6110. Sorry, we don’t have an email address. The directory only gives phone and snail mail. This office is listed at the beginning of page OD-20 in the current directory.
There was months’ long wait time in Canada when they ceased doing CLN appointments in March 2020. They re-commenced CLN appointments in Canada about a year ago. However, I’ve got the impression, from some information I’ve received (not directly from DoS), that they are not holding as many appointments per week as they had been doing prior. It’s hard to be sure as we have gotten so few reports, on the site or by private communication, since the pandemic began.
I have decided that I want to renounce. We are expecting our third and final child in May and I want to pass along the US citizenship to the child so that it can decide whether it wants to live, study, work in the US etc. The US embassy in Luxembourg believes that they may be able to do renunciations, but I should contact them in April to see where things stand. Germany, Ireland, and Spain are not doing renunciations at presently, ostensibly because of COVID-19. As far as I can glean, Switzerland is doing the renunciations, albeit super slowly and with an extremely laborious process. Does anyone know of any US embassies that are currently doing renunciations? I am happy to travel somewhere just to conclude this process in a speedy and uncomplicated way.
I am one of the moderators in a Facebook group called ‘Renounce US Citizenship – Why and How’. Our members have been reporting on the situation and updating a spreadsheet as and when they have more information. I hope this link works for you:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12GBYvKiMscA_4cursb3LHUgEWSulVm7nD5CuB8Dnouw/edit?fbclid=IwAR2AJ23ZVwnC0WPYGc_v0lLQcXrFdBiWAvFFb2BeRJR1c5cSUicB71y7mX0#gid=0
@BirdPerson Thank you so much for sharing this incredibly helpful and useful document. You can update the spreadsheet with the information from Luxembourg, which reads as follows.
Thank you for your message. We only resumed routine services recently; given recent developments with COVID19 we can schedule any appointments only a few weeks in advance. Please note that priority is given to persons who requested this service after March 2020 and we were not able to accommodate until now. We can add you to the waiting list and contact you when we have dates available later in 2022.
Two meetings at the Embassy are necessary if you wish to renounce your U.S. citizenship at the U.S. Embassy in Luxembourg.
@ByeByeUSA
Some here have traveled to Amsterdam in the past and reported a simple procedure.
Luxembourg was also a smooth process, and the two appointments could be just 2 days apart, so no need to go away to ‘consider’ your decision over a long period.