Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 1 of 2
Ask your questions about Renunciation here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Sub-topics (more will be added as they occur):
Farrell v. Tillerson. Plaintiff is contesting Bern Embassy’s rejection of his CLN application due to his not having appeared in person at the embassy and his having been issued a passport after the relinquishing act.
Previous Renunciation Threads:
Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)
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This thread is now closed. Please comment on Renunciation and Relinquishment Questions – Part 2 of 2
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Kabby. You renounced at a good time. Let’s say you get paid for January after the day you renounced. In that case, you would have no income for the first part of the year and no US income for the balance of the year. Therefore you would be under the filing threshold for both 1040 and 1040NR and no need to file either. Just file 8854 and fbar. Your question was answered on the other thread.
Thanks Portland but had a bit of self employed income form the US in January so have to file a 1040 and 1040NR as self employment income over $400 you have to file but its only just over that so need to file the 1040 and 1040NR.Got your message about maximum balance 1st Jan to date of renunciation for FABAR’S so will do that. Can I do the FABAR on line now or shall I wait till I have sent off the tax forms?
You can do the fbar anytime. No one at the other end cares. It just goes into a giant database.
@ Kabby
Having disclosed your accounts with FBAR’s to what is now a foreign government to you, I’d suggest, if possible, moving them to new locations (you’ve got your CLN now to facilitate this), just to gum up the gears of their devilish data collection machinery a bit. (It’s a changing the locks after a burglary sort of precaution.) Anyway it must feel great to be on the final leg of your renunciation journey. BEST WISHES to you! 🙂
Thanks Portland Embee and yes, very good idea about my bank accounts. I think you are right as they could snoop on these anytime even though i am no longer a US Citizen with the information you have to give on FBAR and you are right they still have the key to the house so changing the locks is a very good idea! Embee, Portland, Pacifica, Heidi, FormerPatriot, Heidi, maz57, Duchesse, BirdPerson,UKRose, Nonymous,Plaxy and many others who has helped me through the journey from the “Oh my God” moment to now I am truly indebted. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you and to those that have gone before and those that are yet to make the journey I wish you the best life has to offer and lots of hugs and wishes. Kabby x
Thanks Kabby, you are very welcome.
Go well , enjoy your freedom and good luck!
@Kabby
Just to be clear, the US government cannot snoop on your accounts after renunciation. What could happen is that your bank could be lazy or incompetent and continue sending them your data even after you’ve shown them a CLN. But, apart from the miniscule risk of identity theft to an ex-citizen, that data would be of no use to the IRS.
Switching banks is not a bad a idea if it gives you peace of mind, but it’s certainly not necessary.
Well done for getting through this Kabby! I feel so much better since renouncing, and I could not have done it without the help of this wonderful forum, and the kind people who give such good advice. Sadly my son took out dual US Citizenship 16 years ago, when he was just 17, (via my deceased US father, as I did not have the required US residency) as we were completely unaware of the implications involved. The only advantage he has, is that he has a British place of birth – but he will probably have to spend the rest of his life lying and looking over his shoulder. His job does involve travel to the US occasionally, so he has to use his US passport. I don’t know what he will do when he has to renew it in a few years, and has no SS number. He can’t afford to pay a tax condor, and he has just moved to Australia. So my worries are far from over! I live in hope that a miracle might happen, and common sense will prevail!
@Rose
If your son has a UK birthplace there’s no reason (other than honesty) for him to use a US passport when entering the US. He really doesn’t need to waste any mental energy looking over his shoulder.
I traveled on a US passport for years then switched to a Canadian (with US birthplace) and they have only once noticed. They really don’t care, or keep track of these things, nearly as much as we sometimes fear.
Your son can also apply to renew his US passport without a Social Security Number (one either leaves the field blank or enters all zeroes, I can’t remember which). Most importantly, there is no reason, now or ever, for him to consider entering the US tax system. He need not be concerned. He should be very careful to never disclose US citizenship to any financial institutions, but with a UK passport and place of birth that will be very easy to do.
Thank you Ron, I always value your advice! My only concern is that they know you have previously entered with a US passport, and could tell subsequently if you tried entering with your other passport. I thought I read somewhere that you are going to have to provide a SS number in future, when renewing, but might have imagined It! I don’t think my son has the sleepless nights that I had. He doesn’t really appreciate the situation, and maybe that’s the best way to be! I have, however, tried to drum into him that he has to be very economical with the truth!
You’d think they would know, wouldn’t you? But in practice I had no trouble after switching. (It’s a long story, but for several decades I only used a US passport because I lived in the US for a few years and it also offered certain advantages when living in Germany; when it finally expired I began using a Canadian passport.)
One small factor to consider is that Canadians can enter the US without prior paperwork, but anyone with a UK or Australian passport needs to do the visa waiver thing, which requires listing other citizenships, which means a small act of perjury if he doesn’t claim US citizenship (and if he does claim US citizenship, then presumably he needs to use a US passport and can’t do the waiver). So it may be worth his while to renew the passport, but he can do this without obtaining an SSN.
Otherwise your son has nothing to worry about. Even if he does appreciate the situation, it’s no reason for sleepless nights. He has no reason to enter the US tax system, and no reason to disclose US citizenship to any financial institution. If he learns to keep quiet, all is well.
If he intends to stay in Australia, he should get citizenship there. It would provide protection if ever a collection assistance agreement was added to the tax treaty, similar to what we have in Canada.
All good advice Ron, thank you. I don’t think he could bring himself to commit perjury! I’d imagine he could well decide to stay in Australia, much as I’d like him safely back in Blighty! If it were me, I would keep quiet, and vow never to set foot in the US again! I just feel so bad that I encouraged him to go for the dual citizenship. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I also registered my daughter’s birth and got her a baby passport, back in the day. Oops. But she’s been well briefed now and knows what not to do or say around banks, and as she was born outside the US she’s never had any trouble entering with her Canadian passport.
Good to know! How lucky she is to have you to give her good advice and support. I honestly don’t know where I would be now without it. Thanks again Ron, you, and the other very kind ‘Brockers’ really are very much appreciated.
Re-reading this thread, I have a follow up question for Portland specifically, as I see you had some trouble getting an appointment to renounce in Canada. I’m coming up on a month (I know, not unusual) of waiting for an appointment date and have not heard anything (Toronto/Ottawa as my choices).
Portland, can you share more specifics on who I should contact if I continue to face delays with even getting an appointment confirmation? I saw you had written a letter and sent an email as well but specifics would be helpful. Thank you!
Uncertain. A month isn’t very long. Give it another 2-3 weeks.
We had problems because , although they had the correct reply email address, we never received their reply.
( Yes, I regularly checked my junk folder). After 3 months I sent a further e mail to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov with a copy of the letter we wrote to Washington DC attached.
This produced immediate results from the Vancouver office via a phone call. They had booked an appointment . We just never got the message.
The address in DC , as near as I can make out would be April Scarrow, Western Hemisphere Division Chief, Office of American Citizen Services, Bureau of Consular Affairs, (CA/OCS/ACS)
US Department of State, 600 19 st. N.W. 10th floor, Washington DC 20520.
They didn’t reply.
Can someone please tell me whether FACTA complications and the fact that I am refused by several banks is an acceptable reason to renunciate citizenship in the eyes of the consulate general? does this reason count as “Tax avoidance”? despite being US citizen and reasonably proficient in english, this is not clear to me. the citizenship is giving me more trouble than benefit and i just want it gone. please help 🙂
@ J in Germany,
You are not required to give a reason. There is an optional question at the end of the DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences, asking if you wish to give a reason or not. People routinely check the box for “I do not choose to.”
People are generally not asked at the embassy why they are renouncing. If you are asked, you can refuse to give a reason.. But just to keep things flowing smoothly, best to just say something, it can be neutral like “because my entire life is in Germany and I have no connection to the US.” The consul won’t challenge you on it.
BTW, they usually don’t ask you anything at all, just a few questions to make sure you understand the consequences, pretty routine stuff. At your appointment, you may wait around a lot, but face-time is 10-15 minutes, mostly signing and pushing papers back and forth.
We have a collection of people’s accounts of their renunciations in the Consulate Report Directory. It’s arranged by country and we have a few from Germany.
Du muss keinen Grund geben. Die Fragen nicht. Es ist völlig egal. Man darf Renunciation machen, ohne irgendein steuerlicher Scheiß zu erklären. (Und bitte, bitte, auf keinen Fall US-Steuererklärung schicken!)
Leider sind die Konsulate bestimmt zu; Renunciation wird nicht vor nächstes Jahr möglich sein, schätze ich. Vielleicht kann man etwas zu den Banken sagen?
@Ron
what do you mean by “dont send the US tax declaration?” to whom? i never lived ther or wroked there or had any income that would need to be declered there, so i dont quite get what you mean. :/
He means that you shouldn’t enter the US tax system. Do not try to file any US tax returns. If you don’t have any US income or assets, it’s a viable option.
@J
Some people will try to convince you that even if you never worked in the US, you must file US tax returns and various other tax forms before or even after you renounce. These people are evil, bad people and you should not listen to them.
I can’t read German. but our advice is generally- Do not file any US tax related forms before or after you renounce. This is certainly true if you have never filed before and have no US connections. The message is one is not dependent on the other. You are entitled to renounce for your own reasons. You don’t have to give a reason. You do not have to have filed any tax information before renouncing. Many of us say something simple such as I have no reason to keep my US citizenship and don’t want to.
Consulates are closing for appointments at present. You will have to wait until after the current crisis passes.
J in Germany
It is your human right to renounce, you do not have to give a reason . The Consular official will only want to make sure that you understand to consequences , and are not being coerced . They are not required by the State department to ask for a reason but some overzealous official may ask. It is better to keep it simple and just say something like your life and allegiance is to Germany. You are not required to be US tax compliant to renounce .
Not sure if you are aware but as a US citizen the US requires you to file tax forms each year and post renunciation they want you to have filed for the past 5 yrs or if not, to back file and also file form 8854 which is a list of your assets for assessment of any exit tax that may be due! You can read more on the information side bar on Brock.
Many renunciants who have never been in the US tax system ignore the post renunciation tax filing as there is nothing the US can do if you have no US assets. It would be like entering a hornets nest.
Do you have a US birthplace?
if not it is easier to switch banks and deny US citizenship.
Unfortunately you must now wait for the US Consulates to reopen after covid 19 has run its course.
There is an I
Hei HEidi,
thank you for this information. I will not give a reason beyond what you suggested. However I have just opened a bank account where exactly that citizen information was asked. it is just a checking account, and I was obliged to mention my citizenship along with the social scurity number as otherwise i would openly and knowlingly give false information.
will this alone make me part of the US tax system now? all income on the account is coming from my local employment in germany as a german citizen, who was born in and has lived in germany all his life. i have no US birthplace. therefore there should not be any US tax relevant income.
appearing in the US tax system without any actual reason is the only thing i am worried about. what order of magnitude is the exit tax? a monthly salary or more?
thanks again 🙂